This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
"The Jews" don't control banking and media corporations - specific Jews do - and they're not uniformly Jewish. As I keep banging on about, Jews come in all sorts of different groups, and increasingly they're not even all that Jewish at all.
Specific Jews do the unbanking.
Specific Jews do the media influencing.
Specific Jews do the ADL, AIPAC, soft-on-crime DA, gun control, illegal immigrant charity... funding.
Specific Jews write the opinion pieces about how all white people are racist.
Specific Jews theorize the critical race, gender, border theories and teach them in colleges.
When you add them all up that ends up making a lot of specific individuals, but that still doesn't add up to the full Jewish population.
What are the other ones doing?
Are they coming out and saying 'us representatives of the Jewish bowling club of Broward County Florida, would like to address the egregious accusations against Kanye West / Nick Fuentes / etc, and show our support...'?
I haven't seen it.
If somebody happens to be an individual Jew who absolutely hates to see right-wing people get banned from media, people lose their job over criticism of powerful people, people get smeared every day for their skin color and other such things.
Then good for them.
But what I would call 'Team Jew' is absolutely opposed to them.
If that one individual is unable to shut down 'Team Jew', to tell their family members, cousins, in-laws, synagogue fellows, other members of the Jewish bowling club etc, to stop being part of Team Jew...
...well then they might become a casualty of the inevitable wave of 'antisemitism' (resentment against 'Team Jew').
That's not a threat, it just seems like a law of nature to me.
No nation in this whole world will endlessly tolerate a small group of people that is constantly undermining the majority
(which is what I perceive 'Team Jew' to be doing, which you may disagree with).
So do a lot of gentiles - doubly so regarding the idea that "all white people are racist" - that call's coming from inside the Gentile house (Robin DiAngelo, Ibram Kendi - not Jewish). That Jews are overrepresented compared to their population in left political movements or in white-collar knowledge-work does not make the whole edifice somehow "Jewish," anymore than tech is "Indian" because several CEOs have subcontinental heritage.
Increasingly, there is no "Jewish bowling club" (well, maybe in Broward, but who the eff would care what the Jewish Bowling Club in Broward thinks? Why should they think they speak for all Jews?)
Outside of orthodox communities, "Jewish" identity is increasingly attenuated and deracinated. Three quarters of Jews intermarry with the general population. The proportion of people with ethnic jewish heritage who are involved in religious or jewish ethnic community/social groups keeps falling every year, and is now an absolute minority. If you want to know what a person thinks, ask them.
The fact that you would call it "Team Jew" doesn't make it so.
History repeatedly shows the opposite. The small, organized, intolerant minority frequently stomps the large, unorganized, apathetic majority. The Bolsheviks were a tiny minority in 1918 Russia. The Jacobins were a tiny minority of the Estates General.
While I agree that Team Jew is mostly non-Jewish, I call it Team Jew because Team Jew cheers for primarily one group, Jews.
Progressives will cheer for a Black man unfairly killed by the police.
Not for a Black man who knows too much about Hollywood.
Some refer to it as the myth of the golem, a creature controlled by a Jewish wizard or something.
It's not whether or not they do, it's just that I have never seen a group that calls itself Jewish that would disagree with the narrative.
Perhaps there is such a group as 'Jews for Liberty' that support Kanye West's right to call out greedy business executives and bankers.
Perhaps there is such a group as 'Jews for the 2nd Amendment' or 'Jews for strong borders'. Stephen Miller would be in that one.
They're just not getting quoted in any of these articles I can find when I look up 'kanye west jewish groups'
first article - the American Jewish Committee (AJC) / the American Jewish Committee (AJC) / StopAntisemitism
second article
American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) / American Jewish Congress / Jewish Democratic Council of America
Perhaps these nominally Jewish groups only contain 5 individuals and don't represent anybody.
Perhaps it's just a case of People's Front of Judea
Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough for the 'good Jew', sympathetic to people like me. All I get to see are the ones that demand I strip myself of my culture and my resources while never questioning their culture and their resources.
Bolsheviks got purged.
Jacobins managed to take down the whole French people with them, it only took them a handful of centuries to send the whole nation down the drain.
So maybe I'm wrong about that, but I don't see Team Jew having a stronger hand when they finally manage to replace all of the white goyim with much less sympathetic southern folks that have even fewer reasons to care about their past of oppression.
More options
Context Copy link
In his "How to be an Antiracist" book, Kendi very specifically, unequivocally and unambiguously disagrees with the claim that "all white people are racist".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Everything you state is done by leftists. You are articulating objections to leftism.
A majority of Jews in the West are pretty leftist.
You're engaged in the worst kind of Chinese robber argument. "I hate these trends, I notice a lot of Jews are in favor of them, therefore RAAR JOOS!"
If that were actually happening, they'd be noticed and stopped. Leftism isn't some insidious thing Da Joos are sneaking into the culture. Leftism would not dry up and blow away if not for Da Joos. Leftism is one side in an ongoing culture war, and it's winning a lot for reasons we've discussed here at great length. Da Joos did not make it happen.
Wasn't that the point of the Holocaust?
And antisemitic persecutions before that?
The magna carta
...
Exodus8 Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt. 9 “Look,” he said to his people, “the Israelites have become far too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country.”
Idk what the Jewish version says, but clearly, Jews have been dealt with as a threat for a very long time.
Well, as I said to SS, "It didn't happen but if it did, they deserved it" is certainly not a novel take.
Yes, Jews have been dealt with as a persecuted minority for a very long time. Of course the people who hate Jews don't say they are persecuting them for reasons of religious and ethnic prejudice, they say it's because they're a "threat."
Yes, now who should we believe?
The 1000 companies that fired the employee or the 1 employee that keeps claiming that all these companies are biased against him? What should the HR dept do?
It's sheer coincidence that hundreds of different peoples across time and space all coordinated to inexplicably hold this abhorrent hate for such a fine, distinguished people.
This is a tired argument but this was in reply to your remark:
Historically, problematic behavior from a small ethnic group has been noticed and stopped many, many times.
Whether you agree or disagree that the perception of a 'problematic' behavior was accurate or that the behavior was ethically 'problematic', I think we can both agree on that.
Now regarding your 'Chinese robbers' claim, the idea is that highlighting a certain demographic and random event can distort the perception of that demographic.
I agree.
But perhaps we can have data on that?
There was quite a bit of kvetching over this delightfully-titled piece 'The Specifically Jewy Perviness of Harvey Weinstein'.
I'm not going to go through all of them, but I'll assume that like this one, they do not provide any rebuttal that Weinstein is a specifically Jewish-type of pervert, or that Jews are more likely to be perverts than non-Jews.
I do believe that Jews are over-represented in the demographic of 'powerful people that commit sex/or and financial crimes'.
But I don't have data. I don't have data that would show me that it's only because they're over-represented in the demographic of powerful people,
or if on top of being over-powerful, they are also over-perverted.
If somebody had that kind of data to dispute my assumptions, that'd be great!
The Trump-era Jewish [sex] scandals seem to have faded from the news, perhaps due to the Biden family's own affairs making the topic inappropriate to bring up for journalists, compared to the earlier appetite for salacious rumors of the 'dossier' etc.
No, it's not sheer coincidence. Prejudices can be passed down for centuries, and prejudices that are mindlessly passed on like that are usually not rational. Why do you think the Korean woman I mentioned hated Jews? Do you think she'd ever met a Jew? Do you think Jews are undermining Korean culture?
Your alternate hypothesis appears to be "Everyone has always hated Jews because they deserve it." So what did Jews from Exodus to 13th century England do to deserve being hated? It certainly wasn't manufacturing media you dislike. If I understand your argument correctly, it's something like, Jews are - biologically? or culturally? - compelled to undermine and attack whatever culture they are living in. It's just a thing Jews do. All of them (modulo a rounding error of "Not All Jews"). That's why everyone from the Babylonians to King John to the Nazis wanted to get rid of them. There exist, ahem, more historically grounded explanations, but you reject them for the more gratifying justification "No, they were asking for it."
It's possible that she would have known due to local events.
I'm not too familiar with Korea or Korean antisemitism.
I know of one family active in the East that may have generated some antisemitism in China
the Sassoon family that was involved in the Opium trade which had a huge historical impact.
Like an older, oriental version of our very own Sackler family.
You can tell me whether she met a Jew and whether you think Jews are undermining Korean culture.
If American culture is undermining Korean culture, then I could see somebody blame some Jews for that.
I'm not too familiar with Korea so I couldn't tell.
According to the Scriptures, one man from God's favorite Jewish family went to Egypt and quickly rose in power.
God placed him in such circumstances and gave him such good advice that he was able to save Egypt and his Jewish brethren from a famine.
Then Pharaoh may have gotten jealous, due to that man's rapid rise to power and control of the kingdom's resources (grain supply that God had advised him to store leading to a monopoly during the years-long famine).
For some reason Pharaoh wanted to enslave the Jews and the Jews had to force him to let them go through various God interventions.
I don't know what the Egyptians themselves wrote about the episode.
For 13th century England, the story is a little bit more familiar, and already explained in the link I posted
Basically the Jews were helping the {federal} government) increase its power at the detriment of the locals.
Concentrating the power in the hands of a minority. They didn't have a Wall Street to Occupy back then, but the story is similar throughout history.
Today we can see Jewish advocacy groups push for federal hate crime laws or federal gun laws, or EU-level anti-homophobia, pro-refugee laws, etc.
Well, I already explained why I think there was a selection.
The insider who knows that pitchforks might be coming is more likely to have an exit plan ready, and thus survive and transmit his cunningness to living people today.
I don't know what the ratio is, or can be.
I think that there are some key players, let's say an Epstein or a Wexner or a Soros, the owners of Disney, media companies, porn companies...
But around that there are some other more minor key players, the Marx, the feminist, holocaust and critical theory writers...
And then there are foot-soldiers within the media, within these NGOs or within the bureaucratic machines, that make all of it come together.
It only takes something like <5% of the African-American population to be seriously dangerous to get the 13-60 murder figure, so I don't know what proportions of American Jews it takes to create the JQ.
A lot of them are already dead, too, they just keep living in the brain of impressionable goyim.
I have some ideas about that one.
Weimar Republic perversions.
Economic crisis blamed on Jewish activities (true or false?). Jewish communist revolutionaries.
Jewish transgenderism researchers
What does 'historically grounded' mean? The past is a foreign country, and history is written by the victors.
Team Jew has been trampling on the carcass of the West for a while, so I'm a little bit skeptical of their production.
Plus lately I've grown more and more suspicious of experts in general.
Not a good argument, but I think some can see it as fair if they've been around a Western government in the last few years.
Nah, man. If there were any Jews within 50 miles, it was maybe one or two English teachers. I hardly think they were sneakily conspiring against the Asian goyim.
The Scriptures give reasons for genociding all sorts of people. If you want to go with "We should hate the Jews because the Bible tells us to," well, that is a position some denominations may still take, but I don't see why anyone else should find it convincing.
Funny, then, how it was the kings who owed them money who were the ones who instituted the expulsions.
They were hated because some of them were rich, and they lent money, and nobody likes having to pay their debts.
You have a lot of just-so stories here which seem like ad hoc justifications for "I just don't like Jews."
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Then it would behoove those jews who are apparently not being represented by the 'elite' jews to stop supporting them through ethno centric advocacy groups that go as far as to say that any talk of 'international' or 'cosmopolitan' elites is inherently anti-semitic.
You can't have AIPAC, the ADL, and the thousands of jewish advocacy groups in the US and act like the concept of a 'jew' doesn't hold any value and that it can just be brushed away by mention of the fact that poor jews exist.
Unlike the anti-white racial theories of unconscious bias and systemic racism, anti-semitism doesn't need to go that far to make its point. It just needs to point to any one of the widely supported explicitly racially exclusive jewish advocacy groups.
It may shock you to know this, but most Jews aren't affiliated with, donors to, or otherwise associated with AIPAC or the ADL. Most Jews don't even think about those groups much (if at all). I'm not talking about "poor" Jews - but a large percentage of ethnic "Jews" who are only loosely (if at all) affiliated, either religiously or socially, with "Jewish" organizations. They're about as Jewish as a random American with the surname "Mulvaney" and who wears green on St. Patrick's day is Irish. There are a lot of "Jewish" advocacy organizations and charities in the same way that there are thousands of Catholic organizations.
Do they support their existence and see their interest aligned with them? What kind of proportions of the American jewish population are we talking here? From the opinion polls I've read that are some pretty uniform opinions that jews have that seem plenty represented in their larger organizations.
I mean, yes and no. Can you clarify the point here?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Every group in history has learned the lesson that you bury your differences with your in-group(s) when the out-group(s) attack. This would hold even for Jews. Why wouldn't they defend people that don't represent them if they happen to be in the same nominal group? This can happen even as they claim there's no meaningful concept as a Jew, yes?
Again, Scott had the post (which I can't remember the name of) about how there is a value in defending someone "related" to you from even the slightest attack even as you may have substantial disagreements with them.
OK, but I want to recognize, in the context my original reply to Supah, that we are going very swiftly from 'not all jews' to 'of course all jews'.
I would also like to recognize the inherent problems with the fact that jews naturally outgroup non-jews. And that some jews have displayed extreme neuroticism when it comes to interpreting whether the ingroup is being persecuted or not.
I think we can also recognize that there are inherent issues with this dynamic that are very conducive to causing problems. As is argued in the OP, the very nature of something like the narrative of the holocaust transcends just matters of historical fact. It has to be defended tooth and nail at every point, like you mention, regardless of whether it be true or not. Because it's perceived by jews as a matter of survival. Same goes for the variety of other social memes like the authoritarian personality, critical theory and their derivatives. Say what you want about those memes, but they are not there to help gentiles. They are there to help jews.
I feel that there is an alleged proposition inherent to all of the jew apologetics surrounding these issues. That is that, ultimately, whether it harms gentiles or not is irrelevant. It doesn't ultimately matter if the jew running around defending every bunk social theory or historical narratives is doing good or bad or telling truth or lie. We are just implicitly supposed to recognize and appreciate the inherent logic to the actions of the unapologetic jew. Regardless of its consequences.
No, it's not the same. Supah's point is about who owns the banks. My point is that groups like the ADL can and probably do defend those Jews against anti-Semitism (or its perception, anyway) even without any power/sway at those banks.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Yet non-Jewish Blue tribe whites (njbtw) are explicitly telling each other not to favor njbtw but to literally favor and fight for everyone else.
Their enemy is in order nj non-Blue whites, themselves, and then other people that might oppose the interest of the Blue tribe.
This is the big difference between the Jewish Blue tribe white and the non-Jewish Blue tribe white, and why so many people don't really see them as white.
Real white people don't have the privilege of an in-group willing to fight for them!
That's not relevant to my point. Whether you have that group or not doesn't change the fact that the behavior in question can be seen across all of human history.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link