site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

12
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Specific Jews do the unbanking.

Specific Jews do the media influencing.

Specific Jews do the ADL, AIPAC, soft-on-crime DA, gun control, illegal immigrant charity... funding.

Specific Jews write the opinion pieces about how all white people are racist.

Specific Jews theorize the critical race, gender, border theories and teach them in colleges.

When you add them all up that ends up making a lot of specific individuals, but that still doesn't add up to the full Jewish population.

What are the other ones doing?

Are they coming out and saying 'us representatives of the Jewish bowling club of Broward County Florida, would like to address the egregious accusations against Kanye West / Nick Fuentes / etc, and show our support...'?

I haven't seen it.

If somebody happens to be an individual Jew who absolutely hates to see right-wing people get banned from media, people lose their job over criticism of powerful people, people get smeared every day for their skin color and other such things.

Then good for them.

But what I would call 'Team Jew' is absolutely opposed to them.

If that one individual is unable to shut down 'Team Jew', to tell their family members, cousins, in-laws, synagogue fellows, other members of the Jewish bowling club etc, to stop being part of Team Jew...

...well then they might become a casualty of the inevitable wave of 'antisemitism' (resentment against 'Team Jew').

That's not a threat, it just seems like a law of nature to me.

No nation in this whole world will endlessly tolerate a small group of people that is constantly undermining the majority

(which is what I perceive 'Team Jew' to be doing, which you may disagree with).

Specific Jews do the unbanking. . . . media influencing . . . etc.

So do a lot of gentiles - doubly so regarding the idea that "all white people are racist" - that call's coming from inside the Gentile house (Robin DiAngelo, Ibram Kendi - not Jewish). That Jews are overrepresented compared to their population in left political movements or in white-collar knowledge-work does not make the whole edifice somehow "Jewish," anymore than tech is "Indian" because several CEOs have subcontinental heritage.

What are the other ones doing? Are they coming out and saying 'us representatives of the Jewish bowling club of Broward County Florida, would like to address the egregious accusations against Kanye West / Nick Fuentes / etc, and show our support...'?

Increasingly, there is no "Jewish bowling club" (well, maybe in Broward, but who the eff would care what the Jewish Bowling Club in Broward thinks? Why should they think they speak for all Jews?)

Outside of orthodox communities, "Jewish" identity is increasingly attenuated and deracinated. Three quarters of Jews intermarry with the general population. The proportion of people with ethnic jewish heritage who are involved in religious or jewish ethnic community/social groups keeps falling every year, and is now an absolute minority. If you want to know what a person thinks, ask them.

But what I would call 'Team Jew' ...

The fact that you would call it "Team Jew" doesn't make it so.

No nation in this whole world will endlessly tolerate a small group of people that is constantly undermining the majority

History repeatedly shows the opposite. The small, organized, intolerant minority frequently stomps the large, unorganized, apathetic majority. The Bolsheviks were a tiny minority in 1918 Russia. The Jacobins were a tiny minority of the Estates General.

So do a lot of gentiles - doubly so regarding the idea that "all white people are racist" - that call's coming from inside the Gentile house (Robin DiAngelo, Ibram Kendi - not Jewish). That Jews are overrepresented compared to their population in left political movements or in white-collar knowledge-work does not make the whole edifice somehow "Jewish," anymore than tech is "Indian" because several CEOs have subcontinental heritage.

While I agree that Team Jew is mostly non-Jewish, I call it Team Jew because Team Jew cheers for primarily one group, Jews.

Progressives will cheer for a Black man unfairly killed by the police.

Not for a Black man who knows too much about Hollywood.

Some refer to it as the myth of the golem, a creature controlled by a Jewish wizard or something.

Why should they think they speak for all Jews?

It's not whether or not they do, it's just that I have never seen a group that calls itself Jewish that would disagree with the narrative.

Perhaps there is such a group as 'Jews for Liberty' that support Kanye West's right to call out greedy business executives and bankers.

Perhaps there is such a group as 'Jews for the 2nd Amendment' or 'Jews for strong borders'. Stephen Miller would be in that one.

They're just not getting quoted in any of these articles I can find when I look up 'kanye west jewish groups'

first article - the American Jewish Committee (AJC) / the American Jewish Committee (AJC) / StopAntisemitism

second article

American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) / American Jewish Congress / Jewish Democratic Council of America

Perhaps these nominally Jewish groups only contain 5 individuals and don't represent anybody.

Perhaps it's just a case of People's Front of Judea

Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough for the 'good Jew', sympathetic to people like me. All I get to see are the ones that demand I strip myself of my culture and my resources while never questioning their culture and their resources.

The small, organized, intolerant minority frequently stomps the large, unorganized, apathetic majority. The Bolsheviks were a tiny minority in 1918 Russia. The Jacobins were a tiny minority of the Estates General.

Bolsheviks got purged.

Jacobins managed to take down the whole French people with them, it only took them a handful of centuries to send the whole nation down the drain.

So maybe I'm wrong about that, but I don't see Team Jew having a stronger hand when they finally manage to replace all of the white goyim with much less sympathetic southern folks that have even fewer reasons to care about their past of oppression.

doubly so regarding the idea that "all white people are racist" - that call's coming from inside the Gentile house (Robin DiAngelo, Ibram Kendi - not Jewish)

In his "How to be an Antiracist" book, Kendi very specifically, unequivocally and unambiguously disagrees with the claim that "all white people are racist".

Everything you state is done by leftists. You are articulating objections to leftism.

A majority of Jews in the West are pretty leftist.

You're engaged in the worst kind of Chinese robber argument. "I hate these trends, I notice a lot of Jews are in favor of them, therefore RAAR JOOS!"

No nation in this whole world will endlessly tolerate a small group of people that is constantly undermining the majority

If that were actually happening, they'd be noticed and stopped. Leftism isn't some insidious thing Da Joos are sneaking into the culture. Leftism would not dry up and blow away if not for Da Joos. Leftism is one side in an ongoing culture war, and it's winning a lot for reasons we've discussed here at great length. Da Joos did not make it happen.

If that were actually happening, they'd be noticed and stopped.

Wasn't that the point of the Holocaust?

And antisemitic persecutions before that?

The magna carta

  1. If anyone who has borrowed from the Jews any amount, large or small, dies before the debt is repaid, it shall not carry interest as long as the heir is under age, of whomsoever he holds;

...

Exodus8 Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt. 9 “Look,” he said to his people, “the Israelites have become far too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country.”

Idk what the Jewish version says, but clearly, Jews have been dealt with as a threat for a very long time.

Well, as I said to SS, "It didn't happen but if it did, they deserved it" is certainly not a novel take.

Idk what the Jewish version says, but clearly, Jews have been dealt with as a threat for a very long time.

Yes, Jews have been dealt with as a persecuted minority for a very long time. Of course the people who hate Jews don't say they are persecuting them for reasons of religious and ethnic prejudice, they say it's because they're a "threat."

Yes, Jews have been dealt with as a persecuted minority for a very long time. Of course the people who hate Jews don't say they are persecuting them for reasons of religious and ethnic prejudice, they say it's because they're a "threat."

Yes, now who should we believe?

The 1000 companies that fired the employee or the 1 employee that keeps claiming that all these companies are biased against him? What should the HR dept do?

It's sheer coincidence that hundreds of different peoples across time and space all coordinated to inexplicably hold this abhorrent hate for such a fine, distinguished people.

This is a tired argument but this was in reply to your remark:

If that were actually happening, they'd be noticed and stopped.

Historically, problematic behavior from a small ethnic group has been noticed and stopped many, many times.

Whether you agree or disagree that the perception of a 'problematic' behavior was accurate or that the behavior was ethically 'problematic', I think we can both agree on that.

Now regarding your 'Chinese robbers' claim, the idea is that highlighting a certain demographic and random event can distort the perception of that demographic.

I agree.

But perhaps we can have data on that?

There was quite a bit of kvetching over this delightfully-titled piece 'The Specifically Jewy Perviness of Harvey Weinstein'.

I'm not going to go through all of them, but I'll assume that like this one, they do not provide any rebuttal that Weinstein is a specifically Jewish-type of pervert, or that Jews are more likely to be perverts than non-Jews.

I do believe that Jews are over-represented in the demographic of 'powerful people that commit sex/or and financial crimes'.

But I don't have data. I don't have data that would show me that it's only because they're over-represented in the demographic of powerful people,

or if on top of being over-powerful, they are also over-perverted.

If somebody had that kind of data to dispute my assumptions, that'd be great!

The Trump-era Jewish [sex] scandals seem to have faded from the news, perhaps due to the Biden family's own affairs making the topic inappropriate to bring up for journalists, compared to the earlier appetite for salacious rumors of the 'dossier' etc.

It's sheer coincidence that hundreds of different peoples across time and space all coordinated to inexplicably hold this abhorrent hate for such a fine, distinguished people.

No, it's not sheer coincidence. Prejudices can be passed down for centuries, and prejudices that are mindlessly passed on like that are usually not rational. Why do you think the Korean woman I mentioned hated Jews? Do you think she'd ever met a Jew? Do you think Jews are undermining Korean culture?

Your alternate hypothesis appears to be "Everyone has always hated Jews because they deserve it." So what did Jews from Exodus to 13th century England do to deserve being hated? It certainly wasn't manufacturing media you dislike. If I understand your argument correctly, it's something like, Jews are - biologically? or culturally? - compelled to undermine and attack whatever culture they are living in. It's just a thing Jews do. All of them (modulo a rounding error of "Not All Jews"). That's why everyone from the Babylonians to King John to the Nazis wanted to get rid of them. There exist, ahem, more historically grounded explanations, but you reject them for the more gratifying justification "No, they were asking for it."

Why do you think the Korean woman I mentioned hated Jews? Do you think she'd ever met a Jew? Do you think Jews are undermining Korean culture?

It's possible that she would have known due to local events.

I'm not too familiar with Korea or Korean antisemitism.

I know of one family active in the East that may have generated some antisemitism in China

the Sassoon family that was involved in the Opium trade which had a huge historical impact.

Like an older, oriental version of our very own Sackler family.

You can tell me whether she met a Jew and whether you think Jews are undermining Korean culture.

If American culture is undermining Korean culture, then I could see somebody blame some Jews for that.

I'm not too familiar with Korea so I couldn't tell.

Your alternate hypothesis appears to be "Everyone has always hated Jews because they deserve it." So what did Jews from Exodus to 13th century England do to deserve being hated?

According to the Scriptures, one man from God's favorite Jewish family went to Egypt and quickly rose in power.

God placed him in such circumstances and gave him such good advice that he was able to save Egypt and his Jewish brethren from a famine.

Then Pharaoh may have gotten jealous, due to that man's rapid rise to power and control of the kingdom's resources (grain supply that God had advised him to store leading to a monopoly during the years-long famine).

For some reason Pharaoh wanted to enslave the Jews and the Jews had to force him to let them go through various God interventions.

I don't know what the Egyptians themselves wrote about the episode.

For 13th century England, the story is a little bit more familiar, and already explained in the link I posted

What happened was that, if landowners could not pay their debts to the Jews, they forfeited the property they had put up as collateral. As Jews could not own land, this then reverted to their master, the king, who systematically built up his holdings. It meant that the Jews were accidental agents in a substantial land transfer to the king, and in increasing his powers nationally.

Basically the Jews were helping the {federal} government) increase its power at the detriment of the locals.

Concentrating the power in the hands of a minority. They didn't have a Wall Street to Occupy back then, but the story is similar throughout history.

Today we can see Jewish advocacy groups push for federal hate crime laws or federal gun laws, or EU-level anti-homophobia, pro-refugee laws, etc.

It's just a thing Jews do. All of them (modulo a rounding error of "Not All Jews").

Well, I already explained why I think there was a selection.

The insider who knows that pitchforks might be coming is more likely to have an exit plan ready, and thus survive and transmit his cunningness to living people today.

I don't know what the ratio is, or can be.

I think that there are some key players, let's say an Epstein or a Wexner or a Soros, the owners of Disney, media companies, porn companies...

But around that there are some other more minor key players, the Marx, the feminist, holocaust and critical theory writers...

And then there are foot-soldiers within the media, within these NGOs or within the bureaucratic machines, that make all of it come together.

It only takes something like <5% of the African-American population to be seriously dangerous to get the 13-60 murder figure, so I don't know what proportions of American Jews it takes to create the JQ.

A lot of them are already dead, too, they just keep living in the brain of impressionable goyim.

the Nazis

I have some ideas about that one.

Weimar Republic perversions.

Economic crisis blamed on Jewish activities (true or false?). Jewish communist revolutionaries.

Jewish transgenderism researchers

There exist, ahem, more historically grounded explanations, but you reject them for the more gratifying justification "No, they were asking for it."

What does 'historically grounded' mean? The past is a foreign country, and history is written by the victors.

Team Jew has been trampling on the carcass of the West for a while, so I'm a little bit skeptical of their production.

Plus lately I've grown more and more suspicious of experts in general.

Not a good argument, but I think some can see it as fair if they've been around a Western government in the last few years.

It's possible that she would have known due to local events.

Nah, man. If there were any Jews within 50 miles, it was maybe one or two English teachers. I hardly think they were sneakily conspiring against the Asian goyim.

According to the Scriptures

The Scriptures give reasons for genociding all sorts of people. If you want to go with "We should hate the Jews because the Bible tells us to," well, that is a position some denominations may still take, but I don't see why anyone else should find it convincing.

Basically the Jews were helping the {federal} government) increase its power at the detriment of the locals.

Funny, then, how it was the kings who owed them money who were the ones who instituted the expulsions.

They were hated because some of them were rich, and they lent money, and nobody likes having to pay their debts.

You have a lot of just-so stories here which seem like ad hoc justifications for "I just don't like Jews."

Funny, then, how it was the kings who owed them money who were the ones who instituted the expulsions.

They were hated because some of them were rich, and they lent money, and nobody likes having to pay their debts.

Yes, and that is still a thing. There are a lot of people in the Democrat constituency who are calling for student loan debt to be forgiven.

If somebody plays a roleplaying game with rewards after quests, with a choice each time between gold or reputation (gained by giving away the gold to the needy). And they consistently pick the gold over the reputation.

What is their reputation going to be like?

Perhaps the Jews of England in the 13th century did not have any choice, and really had to do money-lending.

Is that true? Or was there no choice that they liked?

Would a Jew be able to convert and own land, integrate into the farming community? Would that have saved them from expulsion?

What about now? 2023 America? What is stopping a young American Jew from joining the US military or buying a plot of land to farm?

Who is forcing them to go to Ivy League, get into the money-lending industry or the media / entertainment / porn industry?

You have a lot of just-so stories here which seem like ad hoc justifications for "I just don't like Jews."

You haven't provided any explanation on your end. We are just to believe that millions of people through history had the same irrational behavior and beliefs for no reason.

Who would make the best decision, prejudiced backwater Korean woman, 13th century English peasant, or expert rationalist EA investor when offered to invest in FTX?

More comments