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Notes -
How about a pallet cleanser?
In the other thread a few people brought up surrogacy, and maybe I've spent too much time with TERFs, but am I the only one that overwhelmed with the feeling of Lovecraftian horror whenever it's brought up? The feeling is even more uncanny, because it's like I slept through some great societal debate where everybody decided it's actually a lovely thing that should be celebrated. Although maybe it's not all that bad, there's a certain "how it started, how it's going" quality to the NYT headlines. In any case the casual way it's supporters talk about surrogacy freaks me out even more than militant pro-choicers.
Then there's the whole slippery slope thing:
Love is love, we have a right to get married just the same as you! - Yes I agree!
We also have a right to adopt! - Sure! I mean I have my issues with adoption in practice, but in principle if there are kids without parents, and willing gay couples to adopt them I don't see an issue.
We also have a right to biological children! What? Do you expect us to be ok with not having children?
Wait what? Yes I do! I'm all for tolerance, and living and letting live, but you're not going to make me see this as a lovely family moment, and anyway I don't remember signing on to turning a fundamental human experience into an industry when I supported the gay rights movement. Accept the limits of your biology, and move on.
Which brings me to Dase's idea "postrat «don't mean-spiritedly dunk on a rationalist» challenge (impossible)". Indeed, I can't help myself, and even though I used to be rat/rat-adjacent, I find myself having growing disdain for the entire philosophy. There's a meme that's slowly gathering momentum, that all the trans stuff, and 72 genders is just a foot in the door for transhumanism, and after I heard the idea for the first time, I can't seem to unsee it. This twisted ideology will drive us to throw away our humanity, turn us into a cross-over between Umgah Blobbies and the Borg, or trick us into committing suicide, because there's a subroutine running on some GPU somewhere, that's somewhat similar to the processes in our brains. Given the utter dominance of the trans ideology, the vindication of the slippery slope argument, and the extrapolated trajectory of these ideas, I believe we have no other choice - Transhumanism must be destroyed!
I don’t see any actual arguments in your post, just the fact that you’re unsettled over aesthetic differences. Why exactly must transhumanism be destroyed?
Also please don’t fall back on
We’ve been through this enough times that you’ll have to define humanity.
I agree a lot is left unsaid in the original post. But I suspect what the OP is reaching toward is that a child has should have a right to a biological mother and father (a reasoning that I think could only rely on ideas of Natural Law) and technological or legal advances have blown past that bench mark without any reflection.
I'll take the discussion in a different direction: 'planned orphanhood.' There was a news story where an Israeli mother's only child son was killed in army and she made the decision to have his sperm harvested in order to one day have grandchildren. If people have a 'right' to children, do people also have a 'right' to grandchildren? I don't have anything concrete to say about the original topic of surrogacy or the planned orphanhood, but I believe the advances of technology in this area have come without pauses for legal implications, and seeing ethics on other topics change so much in person's lifetime (not my own I'm not that old!) I think in the future the ethics of this area will probably be changed.
If so then he missed the mark. Heterosexual couples can make use of surrogacy too. My wife had to have a hysterectomy for medical reasons, and as a result we've discussed the possibility of having children via a surrogate. Those children would have a biological father and mother (my wife and me), but I don't see how it would be acceptable to OP. He seems to be more rooted in an idea of disgust about surrogacy in and of itself, not just that he doesn't think gay couples should pursue it.
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