site banner
PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   28376 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 29, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Bottom New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

It's almost always framed in how it's bad for women though, typically 'college graduated women can't find husbands (because they will never marry down).'

Indeed, journalistic standards are loose enough that absolutely anything can be framed to make men look inferior or women victimized.

  • "Men are discriminated against in college admission" -> "Men aren't applying themselves in school"

  • "Women are saved first in emergencies" -> "Men treat women as weak and lacking agency"

  • "Women are admired for their beauty" -> "Women are objectified"

  • "Men commit violence more" -> "Men commit violence more" (no dissonance here!)

  • "Men are more often the victims of violence" -> "Women feel less safe than ever, study finds"

  • "Men die in wars" -> "Women lose their fathers, husbands, sons"

  • "Men commit suicide more" -> "Women attempt suicide more"

  • "Men literally die younger" -> "Women are forced to pay more for health insurance" (honestly, I've admired the twisted brilliance of this framing ever since the Obamacare debates)

"Men commit suicide more" -> "Women attempt suicide more"

One of the reasons men are more likely to complete suicide attempts than women is that men tend to use more lethal methods like guns and hanging which tend to result in a disfigured corpse, whereas women tend to want to leave behind an open casket-worthy corpse and hence use methods like overdosing which tend not to disfigure the corpse. One of the hottest takes I've ever seen is a tweet in which a woman argued that the reason men are more likely to commit suicide is because, unlike women, they don't care about traumatising their loved ones by spattering blood and brains all over their kitchen.

That's right: men committing suicide more than women is proof that women are more empathetic.

Seems plausible enough to me, but I guess your point is that it's in tension with the overall progressive stance that suicides are helpless victims.

I mean you're dead right. In some cases, the response to the cognitive dissonance-inducing reality of male suicide has been simply to deny it wholesale.

Oh wow, that article has yet another brilliant bit of statistical legerdemain.

The report found that suicides are responsible for half of all violent deaths in men and 71% of violent deaths in women.

The second number is higher, so clearly it's Women Most Affected! ...Except, of course, that the base rates are completely different. Slicing the data this way means that the more men die violently, then the more this makes women look victimized.

And when I see articles like this, I can't help but wonder. I usually assume that journalists are stupid rather than actively malicious. But the author had to have done some research to get the stats she's playing with, right? I'm sure she's living in a bubble, but even so it seems hard to imagine that she's never encountered the fact that suicide rates are actually higher for men. The article so carefully tap-dances around this fact, it seems like it has to be a purposeful omission ... which is just so damn evil. It makes me sad.

Alternative being that men are choosing more lethal means because they don’t anticipate a last minute rescue. I’ve known a woman with mental illness who’s attempted suicide several times — and every time she did it, she’d call someone or attempt in such a way that she’d be discovered quickly. In other words, the attempt isn’t exactly an attempt, it’s a cry for help and attention. People who want to die will die.

I’ve known a woman with mental illness who’s attempted suicide several times — and every time she did it, she’d call someone or attempt in such a way that she’d be discovered quickly.

I know a borderline woman meeting this description exactly. It's gotten to the point where when a mutual friend receives a text from her, she flinches because she assumes there's some new crisis afoot. It's terribly sad.

Great list. Also:

  • Men compose the majority of the homeless -> homelessness is a women’s issue

  • Male journalists are more often killed than female journalists -> STOP TARGETING WOMEN JOURNALISTS

  • Working husbands tend to die earlier than their stay-at-home wives -> Suddenly these poor widows have to perform the uncompensated physical and emotional labor of managing a bunch of boring bank, brokerage, and retirement accounts that their stupid husbands left behind

I once got into an argument with a feminist, and when I brought up the homelessness thing, she countered that female homelessness tends to be less "visible" as it more often takes the form of couchsurfing than actual rough sleeping.

In other words: if you're a woman and you become homeless, friends and family will let you stay with them temporarily. If you're a man, you're on your own.

Amazing. The kind of argument that a PCM orange Emily could better conjure than I ever could for satirical purposes.

If you managed a straight face, you deserve an Emmy or Oscar.

It's like inadvertent horse-shoeing with the manosphere, dirtbag left, or dissident right. Women have automatic Wonderfulness, social value, and social legitimacy, so there is a floor as to how bad things can get for women relative to men on average.

Directionally, being a man comes with a high risk/ high reward profile.

To make things more fair, feminist societies decided to give women the same rewards with none of the risks.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats