grognard
Intel Pentium III 450 / Nvidia Riva TNT2 Ultra / Corsair 128MB PC133 / ABIT BH6
10mo ago
Eggs are retrieved and then mixed with sperm outside of her body (they are fertilized in vitro). The resulting embryo(s) grow in an incubator for a few days. Embryos are then typically tested, and (usually) one is chosen to be implanted while the rest of the embryos remain frozen for later use.
Not sure I buy “For later use”, This sounds like systematic murder of the unborn, if you hold that life begins at conception.
As someone who believes all human life is sacred (and who recognizes that, scientifically, a zygote is the first stage of human development and thus counts as a human life), I am opposed to IVF.
However, given that IVF is happening, I am in favor of the embryo with the highest chance of survival getting to try to be born first.
Zygotes have fairly low success rates even naturally. If you seriously believed that life began at fertilization, you should stop having procreative sex entirely, because the risk of creating a zygote that fails to implant is too great.
DuplexFields
Ask me how the FairTax proposal works. All four Political Compass quadrants should love it.
Mewis 10mo ago
Quite the knotty moral tangle you've presented here. Let's pick it apart.
(But first, a pedantic terminology point: Life as a separate, unique biological human begins at fertilization, according to science. A new human life begins when two germ cells provide the recombinant DNA and cellular machinery to generate a multicellular framework of tissues and organs which can support a sapient nervous system. The science on that is settled. The moral issues are about personhood, for which mere biological life is a prerequisite and thus (in most other circumstances) a proxy. Thus, your moral tangle can be restated more directly, "If you seriously believed that personhood began at fertilization, you should stop having procreative sex entirely, because the risk of creating a zygote who fails to implant is too great.")
Restated as a syllogism, with expansion of a few built-in assumptions:
Major premise: Those who believe a fertilized egg is a person probably consequently believe his death before birth to be a tragic miscarriage.
Minor premise: The risk of creating a fertilized egg which fails to implant, and thus dies before birth, is high.
Conclusion: Therefore, to avoid tragic miscarriages, those who believe a fertilized egg is a person should not perform the acts which create a fertilized egg.
This is a valid syllogism. Assuming both premises are true, the conclusion must also be true.
I contend the minor premise, "The risk of creating a fertilized egg which fails to implant, and thus dies before birth, is high." Current science says that the greatest risk to the extremely young human is within the first two weeks from fertilization through implantation. A commonly cited number is that 70% of naturally fertilized eggs don't get through this filter. Yet, this article on use of a 25% survival statistic in a court case hints that you've retransmitted a meme which is fairly standard among abortion advocates:
Natural human embryo mortality has often been linked to the ethical status of human embryos. For example, in their brief article, Roberts & Lowe state that “If Nature resorts to abortion … by discarding as many as 3 in every 4 conceptions, it will be difficult for anti-abortionists to oppose abortion on moral and ethical grounds.” Ronald Green, Professor Emeritus of Religion at Dartmouth College, points out, incorrectly, that “between two-thirds and three-quarters of all fertilized eggs do not go on to implant in the womb” and asks: “In view of this high rate of embryonic loss, do we truly want to bestow much moral significance on an entity with which nature is so wasteful?” A report of the Ethics Committee of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in 1983 states: “Knowing as we do that in the natural process large numbers of fertilised ova are lost before implantation, it is morally unconvincing to claim absolute inviolability for an organism with which nature itself is so prodigal”. This link has been considered by many others. Thus, McLean’s assertion, in evidence, that early embryo loss is not only of biological interest but also of political and legislative significance, was clearly correct. How specific estimates of embryo mortality inform an ethical calculus is, perhaps, not so clear. Nevertheless, for those who consider it germane, McLean’s exhortation that “It is therefore important to obtain as accurate an estimate as is possible for the occurrence of early human embryo loss”, must surely be correct too.
Based on this analysis, a plausible range for total embryo loss from fertilisation to birth is 40–60%. This is consistent with estimates from both older and more recent text books. Even with the wide range of mathematically possible outcomes, it is likely that estimates of 90%, 83%, 80–85%, 78%, 76% and 70% total human embryonic loss are excessive.
"Even so," one might ask, "isn't a death rate of one out of two children worth avoiding the one death?" That's morally equivalent to anti-natalism as a prevention for cancers and other causes of suffering and death. Since there's no other way to get new children, and since everyone dies anyway, preventative anti-natalism is equivalent to species extinction, whether for pre-birth or post-birth deaths.
The opposite question becomes, "isn't a life rate of one out of two children worth seeking life?" Even if the life rate were the dismal 20-30% cited by memes, the majority of humanists and Christians have long agreed that children, new people, are worth the attempt.
I would agree that a life rate of 50%, or even 20% or 10% would still be worth it, but I don't place any moral value on a fertilized egg. In addition, I agree that having fertilized eggs die incidentally is not really systematic murder, or even callous. Most Christians, I think, would agree that it's still moral to bring a child to term even if that child had only a chance of survival - if God wants to take those fertilized eggs or embryos back, let the blood be on his hands, not ours.
But the same arguments would apply for IVF. We have accepted that to get a baby, we have to accept a high failure rate for embryos - so now we're just haggling. To that end, embryo screening is a boon, not a burden. By screening out obviously unviable embryos, we are improving the chances of success, not lowering it.
Since currently IVF is done mostly by people with fertility issues, it's more common for the problem to be "not enough embryos" than "too many embryos".
Oh absolutely. IVF results in the creation and destruction (or death by negligence) of many ooctocytes and blastocysts per cycle and it requires many cycles to get a successful implantation. On a per person basis a woman doing IVF is responsible for the death of many more fertilized eggs than a woman seeking an abortion. It's remarkable that the pro-life movement invests so few resources in convincing women paying thousands of dollars and undergoing unpleasant hormonal therapy to adopt instead.
The 'life at fertilization' position casts a funny light on the reality of human biology where 40-60% of embryos die before being born. If blastocysts are human beings than the leading cause of death is failure to be born, improving access to health care that makes fertilized eggs more likely to be born could become a leading pro-life effective altruist cause. However, older couples may be engaging in reckless oocyte endangerment whenever they have unprotected sex since they are placing a human in an environment where it will almost certainly die.
It's remarkable that the pro-life movement invests so few resources in convincing women paying thousands of dollars and undergoing unpleasant hormonal therapy to adopt instead
Did you mean "convince women to carry to term and surrender it for adoption rather than aborting"? Pro-life organizations spend a lot of their time and money doing this exact thing (as in, offer resources to help mothers carry to term even if abortion would be prudent from a socio-financial standpoint, even if they'd ultimately end up adopting it out- they'd find a prospective parent instantly given the below).
If you don't, I think they've correctly assessed that the demand for healthy babies to adopt massively exceeds the domestic supply in Western nations, so women/families looking to adopt have to make very large sacrifices. (And note that it's specifically adopting babies; children (3-8) are a much harder sell, and adults [13+, try as we might to pretend otherwise] are obviously not children thus they basically never get adopted.)
One of these sacrifices is to get a domestic model with a salvage title (usually fetal alcohol syndrome), which require way more maintenance and never perform quite right. Hence, it can be a rational choice to spend that maintenance fee on extra pulls of the IVF slot machine.
The other one of these sacrifices is to get an import model from a country that has a lot of orphans; Haiti is a popular choice for the NA market as it offers a convenient way to inspect the goods on offer before purchase (SEA/African models are trickier to inspect in this way). And while it's true that the TCO on a normal import model will likely be less than a marginal domestic one, there are a few other complications that come with it (namely, that these models have certain immutable traits that render the fact the kid isn't yours permanently and blatantly obvious). Revealed preferences of the population reveal this matters so much that people who want to adopt but can't afford IVF only seldom choose these models, and I don't think it's really a failure of pro-life organizations to not be trying that hard to change this.
Does anyone actually think like this? You know I can think of one Rat catholic that might take ideas seriously enough to follow through to that conclusion. But as far as I'm aware, most profilers who believe life begins at conception aren't utilitarians, they're into natural law. They're still going to hate IVF- but they won't really get started on it as a result of the number of zygotes being high, it will be a response to normalization of a practice outside of natural law. Its not a response to the number of zygotes being killed, its a response to the number of people killing the zygotes.
Lest I get modded for low effort: most people don't "hold that life begins at conception". This already happens with IVF where some embryos are created and never used, and those who hold that life begins at conception already oppose IVF for that reason. But even among opponents of abortion, not all believe that life begins at conception.
magic9mushroom
If you're going to downvote me, and nobody's already voiced your objection, please reply and tell me
Tarnstellung 10mo ago
To be fair, this is IIRC the Catholic Church's official dogma, so it's hardly unknown. Love the "Aika", though.
(Personally I think the passages from the NT make at least as much sense interpreted as implantation rather than fertilisation, but the Catholic Church is notoriously unfond of laymen interpreting scripture.)
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Notes -
Not sure I buy “For later use”, This sounds like systematic murder of the unborn, if you hold that life begins at conception.
As someone who believes all human life is sacred (and who recognizes that, scientifically, a zygote is the first stage of human development and thus counts as a human life), I am opposed to IVF.
However, given that IVF is happening, I am in favor of the embryo with the highest chance of survival getting to try to be born first.
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Zygotes have fairly low success rates even naturally. If you seriously believed that life began at fertilization, you should stop having procreative sex entirely, because the risk of creating a zygote that fails to implant is too great.
Quite the knotty moral tangle you've presented here. Let's pick it apart.
(But first, a pedantic terminology point: Life as a separate, unique biological human begins at fertilization, according to science. A new human life begins when two germ cells provide the recombinant DNA and cellular machinery to generate a multicellular framework of tissues and organs which can support a sapient nervous system. The science on that is settled. The moral issues are about personhood, for which mere biological life is a prerequisite and thus (in most other circumstances) a proxy. Thus, your moral tangle can be restated more directly, "If you seriously believed that personhood began at fertilization, you should stop having procreative sex entirely, because the risk of creating a zygote who fails to implant is too great.")
Restated as a syllogism, with expansion of a few built-in assumptions:
Major premise: Those who believe a fertilized egg is a person probably consequently believe his death before birth to be a tragic miscarriage.
Minor premise: The risk of creating a fertilized egg which fails to implant, and thus dies before birth, is high.
Conclusion: Therefore, to avoid tragic miscarriages, those who believe a fertilized egg is a person should not perform the acts which create a fertilized egg.
This is a valid syllogism. Assuming both premises are true, the conclusion must also be true.
I contend the minor premise, "The risk of creating a fertilized egg which fails to implant, and thus dies before birth, is high." Current science says that the greatest risk to the extremely young human is within the first two weeks from fertilization through implantation. A commonly cited number is that 70% of naturally fertilized eggs don't get through this filter. Yet, this article on use of a 25% survival statistic in a court case hints that you've retransmitted a meme which is fairly standard among abortion advocates:
So, what is that accurate estimate? A second article, also originally published on F1000, puts the percentage at a coin flip with a caveat: 40-60% for normally healthy and fertile women. Opinions differ on whether F1000 is a legitimate peer-reviewed journal or merely a pay-to-publish platform, but these authors cite about 40 papers in going against popular wisdom, and reach this conclusion:
"Even so," one might ask, "isn't a death rate of one out of two children worth avoiding the one death?" That's morally equivalent to anti-natalism as a prevention for cancers and other causes of suffering and death. Since there's no other way to get new children, and since everyone dies anyway, preventative anti-natalism is equivalent to species extinction, whether for pre-birth or post-birth deaths.
The opposite question becomes, "isn't a life rate of one out of two children worth seeking life?" Even if the life rate were the dismal 20-30% cited by memes, the majority of humanists and Christians have long agreed that children, new people, are worth the attempt.
I would agree that a life rate of 50%, or even 20% or 10% would still be worth it, but I don't place any moral value on a fertilized egg. In addition, I agree that having fertilized eggs die incidentally is not really systematic murder, or even callous. Most Christians, I think, would agree that it's still moral to bring a child to term even if that child had only a chance of survival - if God wants to take those fertilized eggs or embryos back, let the blood be on his hands, not ours.
But the same arguments would apply for IVF. We have accepted that to get a baby, we have to accept a high failure rate for embryos - so now we're just haggling. To that end, embryo screening is a boon, not a burden. By screening out obviously unviable embryos, we are improving the chances of success, not lowering it.
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Since currently IVF is done mostly by people with fertility issues, it's more common for the problem to be "not enough embryos" than "too many embryos".
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Oh absolutely. IVF results in the creation and destruction (or death by negligence) of many ooctocytes and blastocysts per cycle and it requires many cycles to get a successful implantation. On a per person basis a woman doing IVF is responsible for the death of many more fertilized eggs than a woman seeking an abortion. It's remarkable that the pro-life movement invests so few resources in convincing women paying thousands of dollars and undergoing unpleasant hormonal therapy to adopt instead.
The 'life at fertilization' position casts a funny light on the reality of human biology where 40-60% of embryos die before being born. If blastocysts are human beings than the leading cause of death is failure to be born, improving access to health care that makes fertilized eggs more likely to be born could become a leading pro-life effective altruist cause. However, older couples may be engaging in reckless oocyte endangerment whenever they have unprotected sex since they are placing a human in an environment where it will almost certainly die.
Did you mean "convince women to carry to term and surrender it for adoption rather than aborting"? Pro-life organizations spend a lot of their time and money doing this exact thing (as in, offer resources to help mothers carry to term even if abortion would be prudent from a socio-financial standpoint, even if they'd ultimately end up adopting it out- they'd find a prospective parent instantly given the below).
If you don't, I think they've correctly assessed that the demand for healthy babies to adopt massively exceeds the domestic supply in Western nations, so women/families looking to adopt have to make very large sacrifices. (And note that it's specifically adopting babies; children (3-8) are a much harder sell, and adults [13+, try as we might to pretend otherwise] are obviously not children thus they basically never get adopted.)
One of these sacrifices is to get a domestic model with a salvage title (usually fetal alcohol syndrome), which require way more maintenance and never perform quite right. Hence, it can be a rational choice to spend that maintenance fee on extra pulls of the IVF slot machine.
The other one of these sacrifices is to get an import model from a country that has a lot of orphans; Haiti is a popular choice for the NA market as it offers a convenient way to inspect the goods on offer before purchase (SEA/African models are trickier to inspect in this way). And while it's true that the TCO on a normal import model will likely be less than a marginal domestic one, there are a few other complications that come with it (namely, that these models have certain immutable traits that render the fact the kid isn't yours permanently and blatantly obvious). Revealed preferences of the population reveal this matters so much that people who want to adopt but can't afford IVF only seldom choose these models, and I don't think it's really a failure of pro-life organizations to not be trying that hard to change this.
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Does anyone actually think like this? You know I can think of one Rat catholic that might take ideas seriously enough to follow through to that conclusion. But as far as I'm aware, most profilers who believe life begins at conception aren't utilitarians, they're into natural law. They're still going to hate IVF- but they won't really get started on it as a result of the number of zygotes being high, it will be a response to normalization of a practice outside of natural law. Its not a response to the number of zygotes being killed, its a response to the number of people killing the zygotes.
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If.
Lest I get modded for low effort: most people don't "hold that life begins at conception". This already happens with IVF where some embryos are created and never used, and those who hold that life begins at conception already oppose IVF for that reason. But even among opponents of abortion, not all believe that life begins at conception.
To be fair, this is IIRC the Catholic Church's official dogma, so it's hardly unknown. Love the "Aika", though.
(Personally I think the passages from the NT make at least as much sense interpreted as implantation rather than fertilisation, but the Catholic Church is notoriously unfond of laymen interpreting scripture.)
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