site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 12, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

40
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

A lot of people think that Star Wars went to shit at the prequels, and at that point it was still under the control of George Lucas.

Two very very different kinds of shit. One was "What the fuck was that guy trying to do? Does he even know his own material's appeal at all? Is he completely talentless and just got lucky before?"

The other was, "What the fuck was that corporation doing? Did they have no plan whatsoever?"

The latter is more typical of "the ghouls in charge of most of America's cultural legacy". The former was much more rare, I can't think of many other situations where someone ruined their own legacy like that.

I think it's pretty common for creators to have inconsistent output or to not understand what makes their own work good. A few other examples that come to mind:

  1. Jane Austen thought Pride and Prejudice was her worst book

  2. Paul McCartney believe his more recent work is much better than The Beatles

  3. The Wachowskis have made a few fantastic movies (The Matrix is my favorite movie of all time) but most of their movies are crap

But I have no clue what allows some creators to consistently produce good work, and others to be occasionally genius but inconsistent.

I can't think of many other situations where someone ruined their own legacy like that.

Chester Gould introduced life on the moon to the Dick Tracy comic strip.

Of course I did have to go back some years to get an example that's well known enough.

Jack Kirby also created a lot of stinkers in his later years, ending his career with Captain Victory.

Before she was unpersoned, JK Rowling was notorious on Twitter and other places for all kinds of silly retcons that no one asked for. (That trivia tweet was sourced from her own supplemental writing.)

Most people ate up her retcons, though, even if those people also thought they were a bit on the silly side. But a lot of her retcons played into the social justice narrative, so people were championing them.

She had the incredible good timing to create a record-shattering children's book which celebrated witchcraft and poked conservative Christians at the exact moment to perfectly puncture and deflate the resurgent American Christian monoculture when it was poised to retake America.

She also had the hilarious bad timing to be on the wrong side of the same culture war she inflamed, in such a way that her children's movie about sexual tension and ideological war between gay pagan former lovers Dumbledore and Grindelwald played by Jude Law and Mads Mikkelsen totally failed to make any cultural impact.

She had the incredible good timing to create a record-shattering children's book which celebrated witchcraft and poked conservative Christians at the exact moment to perfectly puncture and deflate the resurgent American Christian monoculture when it was poised to retake America.

Oh gosh, is nobody familiar with British school stories and British fantasy for kids? Whatever Americans may have made of it (and it wasn't about "celebrating witchcraft"), in the British children's fiction context it was simply another example of an established genre (see Alan Garner, The Worst Witch, and many others, including C.S. Lewis and Narnia). That it became explosively popular was astounding and yes, probably a matter of luck, but it had nothing to do with "deflating resurgent American Christian culture" or whatever.

The problem with Lucas is he used to have people who would tell him "no". Also he didn't direct most of the original trilogy. He's a great idea man, so long as someone filters through his ideas. He definitely gave the original trilogy it's heart. But when it was 100% Lucas, his short comings were amplified enormously.

Even the prequel trilogy looks good compared to The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker. The acting wasn't as good. The CG has not aged well. But it at least has a more coherent story from beginning to end. Not coherent in absolute terms. Just more coherent compared to the new trilogy. While hard to quantify, I also think it has more heart. There is still a sense of Lucas' creative voice coming through.

I think Lucas suffered from a bit of just losing his edge with age and success. He wrote Star Wars when he was young and hungry. He wrote the sequels when he was middle aged and had kids. Much the same happened with Stephen King and The Dark Tower. The first book is amazing, sharp, and very dark. By the end its silly as all hell. He wrote them over a span of decades, with a sizeable gap between the first and second in which the writing style changed a great deal.

To me, the difference between the prequels and sequels is kind of like the difference between The Room and Sharknado. They're both bad, but one is at least bad in an interesting way, being the bizarre fever dream of a single man, and the other is bad in a lazy corporate way with no particular vision (this is also why the Last Jedi is the best of the sequels: it may be a mess, but at least it's an ambitious mess).

I've gotten dozens of hours of entertainment over the years discussing all of George Lucas's strange choices and obvious missteps with friends. If nothing else, it is really fun to try to figure out what in God's name this man was thinking. On the other hand, I barely remember Rise of Skywalker and will probably never see it again, because "rushed production with a last minute replacement writer/director who clearly didn't want to be there" isn't an interesting enough reason for being bad to occupy any of my attention.