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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   30479 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

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So Georgia Meloni, the supposed far-right firebrand of Italy, is now planning to radically open up visa access for non-EU migrants. PiS in Poland are planning similar measures, even as they've let in record number of workers from moslem-majority countries since they've took power. Of course, the rhetoric from both the Italian and the Poles are all about asylum seekers and illegal migration. Sort of reminds me of GOP rhetoric about stopping people at the border even as they get jawboned by business lobbies to liberalise legal avenues for work visas.

It's the same thing here and it deserves to be pointed out that these fake populists in Europe are ultimately in thrall to the same power system as the old parties are. What's driving large-scale migration isn't some evil plot. It's not Soros or even the Kalergi plan. It's just capitalism. Both of those individuals may be colorful but ultimately the driving force is structural.

Of course, my explanation is boring, perhaps even banal, which is why it will never take off. Not enough drama. As for these developments, I think Europe should be a bit "pragmatically racist" in selecting groups from countries that have a track record of integrating well, e.g. I'd give preference for South-East Asia, but it appears that such a moderate policy is too racist even for the "far-right".

Incidentally, when reading about Max Weber's life in recent days, I found out that he was quite nationalistic as a young man and even campaigned against cheap foreign labour (principally from Eastern Europe). Quite ironic for someone who later became a liberal intellectual, but also amusing in that it shows that this thing has been going on for a lot longer than people realise and it likely won't end soon either.

I think Europe should be a bit "pragmatically racist" in selecting groups from countries that have a track record of integrating well, e.g. I'd give preference for South-East Asia, but it appears that such a moderate policy is too racist even for the "far-right".

Again and again, why do people keep on jumping to race as the most accurate way to filter for being able to integrate? I will keep repeating, it's at very best just a weak proxy for anything that actually matters. It's really not hard to construct a better proxy: just as literally the first thing that comes to my head, selecting people for a work permit based on the salary of the job they're getting would be a much better way than race/country of origin to pick out immigrants Italy might want (even if it's still not even close to perfect).

This is exactly why immigration concerns are so often dismissed as motivated mostly by literal racism. Such a crazy and bizarre logical jump happening this consistently is really, really suspicious.

Again and again, why do people keep on jumping to race as the most accurate way to filter for being able to integrate?

If someone keeps preferring racial discrimination to other methods of filtering, the most parsimonious explanation is that they are racist. If filtering by wealth or education leads to disparate impacts, that might be racist but it also might just be a preference for rich, educated immigrants and the disparate impact on people from the Middle East or Africa is too bad. If they say "I prefer Whites to Asians and Asians to Africans", it requires a lot of mental gymnastics to explain how that's not just racism.

If someone keeps preferring racial discrimination to other methods of filtering, the most parsimonious explanation is that they are racist.

As other point, you are just using the word "racist" as a conversation stopper. Many other types of "filtering" are also verboten and can make you a sexist, classist, islamophobe (or other phobe), ageist, ableist and so forth, and all it takes is to "prove" disparate effect. So in the end who cares if Skibboleth think it is racist, everything is racist of course.

Second, people are not playing by the same rules. Filtering by race (or sex or age or whatever) is okay if you point out to disparate outcomes. So under your definition, somebody who claims that black men are disproportionately target of police brutality is racist and sexist just by virtue of using such a filter, right? Moreover if one looks and sees that black or Hispanic people prefer to vote for black/Hispanic politicians, this means that they are themselves racist as well.

If they say "I prefer Whites to Asians and Asians to Africans", it requires a lot of mental gymnastics to explain how that's not just racism.

You're making the worst argument in the world.

The central example of 'racist' is a neo-nazi who yells racial slurs and innocent passers-by. You're purposefully conflating this (terrible) behaviour with the far more reasonable behaviour of having a preference over the type of immigrants ones country imports.

Am I? If anything, this seems the opposite - deflecting criticism by pointing to a more extreme example. The most extreme example of a racist is a neo-nazi who yells racial slurs and whatnot. This is not the typical example of a racist, and would have been pretty unusual even in the most racist historical environments. If someone holds strongly racially prejudiced views and those views motivate their politics and behavior, it is entirely fair to characterize them racist, even if they are polite in person to the object of their animus.

The actual policy we're discussing is an immigration policy that favours people who are similar to the existing (often native) ethnic group. In other words, a political manifestation of the preference for living near people who look like you.

And more or less everyone, from the immigrants themselves to the most full-throated supporters of multiracialism and immigration does prefer to live among people like themselves.

As far as I can tell, the only sin of the people you call racist is that they want more people to be able to act on the revealed preferences that we all share.

The actual policy we're discussing is an immigration policy that favours people who are similar to the existing

Is it? The comment I was replying was:

Again and again, why do people keep on jumping to race as the most accurate way to filter for being able to integrate?

which was in response to:

I think Europe should be a bit "pragmatically racist" in selecting groups from countries that have a track record of integrating well, e.g. I'd give preference for South-East Asia, but it appears that such a moderate policy is too racist even for the "far-right".

Which suggests an immigration policy that favors people from particular countries or regions. As @atokenliberal6D_4 noted, this is completely unnecessary. As far as I can tell, the most parsimonious explanation for this is a preference for racial discrimination over evaluating individual candidates (which is what we already do).

And more or less everyone, from the immigrants themselves to the most full-throated supporters of multiracialism and immigration does prefer to live among people like themselves.

I don't have a problem with the proposition that most people are racist (though only some people make racism central to their political preferences). Most people are liars, but I still think honesty is good.

The White Australia Policy was also a pretty central example of racism.

Fair enough. It is not just racism it is justified racism then. Chinese immigrants have proven they could assimilate and thrive all around the world. So are the other east Asians. So are the Indian upper classes, jews and whites. So if you have to choose immigrants - you choose from cultures with proven track record. If racism leads to better outcomes for my country - so be it.

If you need 1000000 workers today what would you choose - a million Koreans or a million Chechens?

A million Chechens, obviously, because Chechens are white and Koreans aren't.

Of course, this is a nonsense scenario for multiple reasons, but most prominently: we don't have to issue visas based on such crude measures as race or even nationality. We can and do discriminate amongst applications based on the qualities of individual applicants.

A million Chechens, obviously, because Chechens are white and Koreans aren't.

...and there in you demonstrate that the "uncharitable strawman" of HBD is not a strawman at all.

I'm not sure anything I say should be taken as indicative of HBD positions, since I am being facetious.

again, six or a half dozen regardless.

???

He was making an uncharitable strawman in order to take the piss out of HBDers, and you're saying it's evidence that it's not an uncharitable strawman?

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...Pretty sure @Skibboleth is being sarcastic, not speaking plainly.

Six or a half dozen regardless.

  • -13

Arghhhh!!! The entire point is that it's not justified. If I needed to choose 1000000 workers I wouldn't arbitrarily straitjacket myself into needing all of then be from the same country/race---I would just pick the million best from everywhere the best way I can. There are so many other much more useful ways to distinguish people from each other. I am completely dumbfounded why this point is so hard for people to grasp.

And it’s worth noting that arguing that, say, whites assimilate to Italian culture better than southeast Asians, who assimilate better than Africans(or the same hierarchy for HBD) might be accurate, but it’s still racism. It’s just justified racism.

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