This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I had quite the throwback culture war experience this past weekend. While at a family gathering, my dad was cornered by an in-law and quizzed about my “agnosticism”.
He was asked if he had led me to this lack of faith, and was then informed that it’s the patriarch’s responsibility to “get his family into heaven” – a neat little double-duty insult of both himself and me.
I tend to be a very laid-back guy in meatspace, but found myself livid. I’ve been in this family for close to a decade, and the sheer cowardice and arrogance of this exchange was breathtaking. To circle around to one of my direct family members instead of having the cajones to challenge me directly was ridiculous (and in hindsight, what I should have really expected from these people).
We’ve been existing in what I thought was a reasonable detente. As a victorious participant in the Atheism culture war, I’ve been kinda-sorta prepared to have these skirmishes with my wife’s catholic family for a long time. The unspoken agreement was that I go to church for holidays, let you splash water on my children, and don’t bring up anyone’s hypocrisy/the church’s corruption, rampant pedophilia/the inherent idiocy in believing in god.
In exchange, I get to stay balls deep in my excellent wife and should be left alone.
I’ll be the first to admit the excesses of Atheism’s victory laps and see how “live and let live” can slide down the slope into a children’s drag show. But this indirect exchange reminded me that when the culture war pendulum swings back, I should be prepared for the petty tyrants and fools on the religious right to reassert themselves. We’re already starting to see the tendrils of this, even if some of their forces have been replaced with rainbow-skinsuit churches across the US.
For Christian motteziens - No disrespect intended. I'm aware of the hypocrisy of my arrogance in this post, and it's intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek
No disrespect back at you, but that's not how Christian marriage works. you knew that going in, and you're wife knows that. If either of you don't know that, your respective fathers have certainly fallen short here.
I know there's an expectation that Christians "have" to do this. But from a pragmatic, as opposed to biblical edict standpoint, I'm never going to change. It's inviting conflict with no possible upside for anyone or a fictional god.
This is where my charge of arrogance comes into play. I've spent just as much time and effort, if not more, considering my beliefs and morality. I was born and raised in a pressure cooker of Christianity and haven't budged an inch. If they assume I'm too stupid to have actually thought this true, or that I'm weak enough to fold to their bullying, they're wrong on both fronts.
Given the available evidence of non-believers that have converted, what makes you so confident you'll never change? I don't think you've really engaged with the faith, the objections you raise are shallow. Maybe you engaged with a hollow version of the faith.
I, too, used to be an edgy Internet atheist. I'm now on the path to Catholic baptism.
At least 3 of the men who married into this family have converted, but came from casual christianity as opposed to atheism. I've been given the hard and soft sell continuously throughout my life, and really only got respite from it after moving from home. Things would have been much easier for me if I could be religious, but I couldn't honestly make that choice.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Well I mean fallen short in advising you both not to enter a mixed marriage. Look, I don't know your family and would guess that 90+% percentage of inter-family value pressure and hostility (Christian or otherwise) is counterproductive just from a human nature perspective, so I'm not carte-blanc defending that.
But your wife, especially if she's a practicing Catholic, doesn't get to just make up the rules to force-fit her preferred marriage arrangement. Overall, by entering a Christian marriage, both of you should expect and act gracefully in the face of the Great Commission's demand's on your families, or else you shouldn't have entered into a marriage with a Christian.
Maybe this isn't what you're saying, but it's not arrogance to act upon your convictions.
More options
Context Copy link
Then maybe you should not have married her. Your choice.
You may consider it passe, but I personally believe in love as an actual thing.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'm pretty sure he knows that's not how Christian marriage is supposed to work, but also that formal rules are often ignored in practice for various reasons. Is his father's failure in that he didn't raise him to be a turbo-autist who can't distinguish between rules-as-written and rules-as-practiced?
So let me get this right, to ever defend practices of Christians as straightforwardly how Christianity works is turbo-autism?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link