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PaperclipPerfector  2yr ago (text post)   31847 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 14, 2023

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There are a lot of writeups on the "1 in 4" claim. Here is a particularly critical one which concludes:

Now, much more could be said about caveats, but using just the information we have so far, we can see that a more accurate headline would look something like this:

Approximately 1 in 4 of 19% of a Non-Representative Sample of Women Who Responded to a Non-Representative Survey of 27 Colleges (Out of Roughly 5,000) Reported Experiencing Sexual Assault, Where “Sexual Assault” is Taken to Mean Anything from Being on the Receiving End of an Unsolicited Kiss to Forcible Penetration at Gunpoint, Regardless of the Particular Context

Most of the time when I have pointed this out to someone touting "1 in 4," they've been pretty quick to retreat to the rhetoric of "even one is one too many." Women have a lot more to fear from men, than vice versa, and very nearly all women have a story they can tell you about sexual mistreatment (that may or may not rise to the level of "assault"). So it is perhaps understandable why people might be susceptible to exaggerated claims on the matter--but also, the pattern is common across a variety of objectionable activity; police brutality is also far less common than people tend to believe, for example.

Women have a lot more to fear from men, than vice versa,

This is absolutely one hundred percent true when you look at physical encounters in isolation, but I think that the ratio actually shifts a bit when you zoom out and look at things in a broader context. I don't think Johnny Depp could have done anything nearly as ruinous to Amber Heard as she did to him, for example.

I think a big problem for the study is that it assumes that college is representative of the Real World. It’s really probably less connected to the real world than most other communities. There’s the fact of the similar ages (18-25), the marriage status (almost all single), duration (living in the community 24-7 for 4 years). If I was going to create the bast possible environment for sexual assault (by any definition), it Would probably be exactly the structure of the college campus. Newly liberated young adults living in an environment full of other young adults with minimal responsibility, and no connection to either families or significant others. It’s young unattached adults who look for sex and love and are willing to bend or break rules to get it, especially with alcohol involved.

The setup is nothing like most of the rest of your life. In most of your working life, you might spend 40-50 hours at work, but you don’t live with your workmates. Your workmates are not all the same age. They’re also unlikely to be single, and if they are,they’re not your age. I think that using college students to study wider human society makes less sense than studying people on navy ships or astronauts or movie actors and using that to figure out what is going on in the rest of the country. College isn’t real life. And it’s not even close to how most women live.

To my knowledge every study has concluded that women in the same age group are more likely to be sexually assaulted if they aren't in college.

Women have a lot more to fear from men, than vice versa, and very nearly all women have a story they can tell you about sexual mistreatment (that may or may not rise to the level of "assault").

This is pretty much where I am regarding these figures. Just about all women have stories of being cat called, groped, had guys act menacing when turned down, or the like. I'm also at the point of believing women when they point out that some unassuming dude in our social network has a rep for being creepy with their DM's or behaviour towards women when no other guys are around (in a real sense like leering at, touching, or hitting on another guy's girlfriend for instance). I remember a socially awkward friend of mine that I had to tell off for leering when my girlfriend at the time complained. To his credit he pulled his head in and changed his behaviour.

But that's about it. I consider most of Feminism's claims to be deliberately misinterpreted statistics like the above for the purpose of reaching their political goals.

I've been in situations at a club or a party where a guy has tried to lift my shirt or grab my ass when I've made it clear that I'm straight. It's not fun and made me genuinely upset when it's happened, but its not rape and didn't warrant filing a police report of all things.

I think there needs to be a distinction between boorish behavior and sexual assault. We should condemn the boorish behavior but it is different in kind; not just degree from sexual assault. Feminism has sought to blur the distinction.

Agreed. There's political value in equivocating statistics like that. Same deal with gun death statistics being used by gun control advocates, but avoiding mention that some may be suicides. Or defining both slapping with an open hand and beating someone with a baseball bat as 'assault'.

Boorish behaviour and groping isn't rape. It's bad and should be stamped out, but its not on the same level.

Does this mean you’re approving the OP?

Anyway, the alternate headline goes pretty far the other way. It looks awfully like the author really did want to minimize the claims, despite all he says about “one is too many.” I’m reading the executive summary because I still can’t figure out how 27 colleges were non-representative. Why not go with something like

Overall, 11.7 percent of student respondents across 27 universities reported experiencing nonconsensual sexual contact by physical force, threats of physical force, or incapacitation since they enrolled at their university.

That’s the actual Key Finding from the study. Add a qualifier for the low response rate since that’s next in the summary. Presto, you’ve got a headline which is far more accurate than the Times and far less plodding than the proposed alternative.

The low response rate means you have garbage data which means you shouldn’t rely on anything.

Fair enough, but the way to indicate that is to talk about response rate.

Approximately 1 in 4 of 19% of a Non-Representative Sample of Women Who Responded to a Non-Representative Survey of 27 Colleges (Out of Roughly 5,000) Reported Experiencing Sexual Assault, Where “Sexual Assault” is Taken to Mean Anything from Being on the Receiving End of an Unsolicited Kiss to Forcible Penetration at Gunpoint, Regardless of the Particular Context

I bolded the parts that are actually load-bearing. The rest is Earp trying to make it look as stupid and clumsy as possible.

For example, the Times' decision to gloss "nonconsensual sexual contact by physical force, threats of physical force, or incapacitation" as "sexual assault" is basically journalistic malpractice. What's the minimum change necessary to report this fairly? Using the actual wording from the actual survey. This isn't good enough for Earp, whose "more accurate" version is positively contorted.

Insofar as I believe in "not paraphrasing unflatteringly," I think this is a bad thing.

It still seems like the definition of sexual assault is quite broad. But really I think you can just say “we don’t know” when you have a non representative sample just due to response rate.

The parent comment only shows as Filtered. I'm assuming you were able to see it as an admin.

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