How I dislike CRPGs. So much writing, and almost all of it bad. Planescape: Torment, okay, fairly unique. Disco Elysium, not my cup of tea but I can see there's something to it. But yet another generic trip down D&D memory lane, with all the same old systems, the same old setting that was never much good outside of the tabletop to begin with? The intervening CRPGs that I tried - Wasteland, Inquisitor, Tyranny, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder: Kingmaker to name that ones I most readily recall - were all such bad, unrewarding trash that I finished not a single one of them. The gameplay is a stupidly contrived to make a tabletop RPG run without a GM, the dialogues go on forever but if you've read one of them you've read them all and none are worth reading, why even play those games? Many play them, so I'm sure I just don't get it, but do I ever not get it!
Which is too many words to say - I hope you're having fun, but I'm not touching another CRPG until I hear some serious praises sung about both the writing and the gameplay.
Brigador. Homeworld. House of the Dying Sun. The writing is short and to the point and qualitatively decent and all of it supports the gameplay or world-building and isn't just wordy padding. Remove any of the writing in those games and they'll be poorer for it, because what little there is serves a purpose and is good enough to be worth reading.
Okay, that was a bit of a joke doubling down on "videogame writing is universally bad" by implying that the less, the better. Serious answer: None that I can remember. Cyberpunk 2077's writing is pretty good IMO, but I really mean that it's pretty good for a videogame. I enjoyed my time with it, recommend it, would happily play and read more of it, but even then it's the whole immersive package that makes it work, and the writing mostly contributes by being above-average for its medium.
So far, whenever I followed someone's suggestion of "play this, it's text-heavy but well-written!", I ended up sorely disappointed.
Game writing tends to be derivative (all fantasy CRPGs, all AAA titles), or excessively pretentious (Sunless Seas/Skies, Cultist Simulator), or just plain low-quality either because the developers barely speak English and saw no need for proper localization (E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy, Shadow Empire) or because the writers they hired are untalented hacks (Hunt: Showdown, Destiny 2).
There may be games with good writing in genres that I don't play, but I don't really consider visual novels and the like games.
Well my ears are burning. So what media would you say has excellent writing? Because it seems to me like you object to anything that gets in the way of gameplay and your favourite games would be the likes of Galaga and Centipede.
Since your perspective is so alien to my own, I hope you don't mind some additional curiosity - what did you think of something like Super Hot, or aliens dark descent, or grim dawn? And how would you rank fire emblem, xcom and total war? Oh, and what you do you think of grand strategy games?
Well my ears are burning. So what media would you say has excellent writing?
Some books. A few films.
Because it seems to me like you object to anything that gets in the way of gameplay and your favourite games would be the likes of Galaga and Centipede.
Hey, I do appreciate some plot and lore and world-building in games. But the formula is (quality divided by quantity). If quality isn't possible, then I do prefer the least quantity required to let the game make sense. In cases where that means no writing at all, the game is usually too simple to hold my interest.
Since your perspective is so alien to my own, I hope you don't mind some additional curiosity - what did you think of something like Super Hot, or aliens dark descent, or grim dawn? And how would you rank fire emblem, xcom and total war? Oh, and what you do you think of grand strategy games?
Superhot: Massively overrated. Gameplay is an one-trick pony. Writing is aggressively bad. Would recommend staying away from.
ADD: Never played, can't say.
Grim Dawn: It's okay for an ARPG, which isn't saying much. Not my cup of tea. The writing struck me as utterly forgettable, but sparse and irrelevant enough compared to the massive levels to not get in the way.
Fire Emblem: Never played.
XCOM: I like those. For the gameplay, that is. What little writing they have seems pointless to engage with - the plot never goes anywhere, the world isn't built up, might as well ignore anything but the instructions.
Total War: I fondly remember the very first Shogun: Total War, and I must say that I'm disappointment by what that entire series has become. The gameplay is extremely stale, and the writing - what little of it is there - is trash.
Grand Strategy: Do you mean Paradox map-painting simulators? I played EU3, HOI4 and Stellaris, and I've come to thoroughly regret that as wasted time. The gameplay is a mess and the writing, piecemeal as it is, is not worth sticking around for. And maybe I'm too much of a rube, but that worm story in Stellaris was so much pretentious crap. Apart from Paradox, let's say looking at Stellar Monarch, Terra Invicta and Dominions, I'd say Grand Strategy has a few intriguing titles, but most of them are very flawed in many ways and their writing is above average at the most.
Hey, I do appreciate some plot and lore and world-building in games. But the formula is (quality divided by quantity).
Ah ok, that is not so inscrutable a position to me, although I am still intrigued - I would be more generous in my appraisal, but your assessments are directionally similar to mine (btw you'll hate the writing in dark descent, but if you like Brigador and XCOM I reckon you'll enjoy the gameplay.) What do you think of roguelikes like caves of qud and dcss? And one out of left field - what's your opinion of the song-writing of David Bowie?
Sorry if it feels like I'm grilling you, but your original post opened my eyes a bit - I had fallen into the wordcel trap of assuming anyone with greater intelligence than me must love words even more than me (deep down I always knew that wasn't the case, I was typical minding). And when I read your post and remembered that that was not the case, I also realised I'd never really tried to see the medium from your perspective (hence my overly reductionist opener).
Southkraut
The rain fell gentlier.
Fruck 2yr ago·Edited 2yr ago
Ah ok, that is not so inscrutable a position to me, although I am still intrigued - I would be more generous in my appraisal, but your assessments are directionally similar to mine (btw you'll hate the writing in dark descent, but if you like Brigador and XCOM I reckon you'll enjoy the gameplay.) What do you think of roguelikes like caves of qud and dcss? And one out of left field - what's your opinion of the song-writing of David Bowie?
Roguelikes I like.
Qud stands out as one with good world-building, which I always like playing for the atmosphere although even then I think the actual texts are somewhat overrated and pretentious.
DCSS stands out as one that's pleasantly streamlined and requires no great investment of time to play but has no plot or world-building to speak of, IIRC.
I have played many roguelikes and I like the genre, but here too good writing is rare. Even though some of them manage unique world-building or an immersive atmosphere, it's rarely down to the words.
As for David Bowie, I can't say. I'm barely able to place his music. Looking up some "best lyrics" of his on google, it seems fairly random. I'd withhold judgement on account of insufficient exposure.
Sorry if it feels like I'm grilling you, but your original post opened my eyes a bit - I had fallen into the wordcel trap of assuming anyone with greater intelligence than me must love words even more than me (deep down I always knew that wasn't the case, I was typical minding). And when I read your post and remembered that that was not the case, I also realised I'd never really tried to see the medium from your perspective (hence my overly reductionist opener).
Going by the standards of the Motte, it's likely that I am not more intelligent than you. Pretty sure I'm at the low end here. But while we're defending our positions - I must say that on account of having little time to play, I am very quick to dismiss any individual game as not worth my time, and so it's entirely possible that my opinions are too negative by default.
What the heck? I'm sorry for not replying earlier, I thought I did, I thought I replied yesterday but I guess it didn't take? This has been happening a lot lately.
Anyway, I thought you might like roguelikes, but I would have guessed you'd go stone soup over caves of qud. Caves of qud is so great though, although yeah it is a bit pretentious. Part of the difference here is clearly that I have a much higher tolerance for shlock and pretentiousness.
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How I dislike CRPGs. So much writing, and almost all of it bad. Planescape: Torment, okay, fairly unique. Disco Elysium, not my cup of tea but I can see there's something to it. But yet another generic trip down D&D memory lane, with all the same old systems, the same old setting that was never much good outside of the tabletop to begin with? The intervening CRPGs that I tried - Wasteland, Inquisitor, Tyranny, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder: Kingmaker to name that ones I most readily recall - were all such bad, unrewarding trash that I finished not a single one of them. The gameplay is a stupidly contrived to make a tabletop RPG run without a GM, the dialogues go on forever but if you've read one of them you've read them all and none are worth reading, why even play those games? Many play them, so I'm sure I just don't get it, but do I ever not get it!
Which is too many words to say - I hope you're having fun, but I'm not touching another CRPG until I hear some serious praises sung about both the writing and the gameplay.
What videogames would you say have excellent writing, then?
Brigador. Homeworld. House of the Dying Sun. The writing is short and to the point and qualitatively decent and all of it supports the gameplay or world-building and isn't just wordy padding. Remove any of the writing in those games and they'll be poorer for it, because what little there is serves a purpose and is good enough to be worth reading.
Okay, that was a bit of a joke doubling down on "videogame writing is universally bad" by implying that the less, the better. Serious answer: None that I can remember. Cyberpunk 2077's writing is pretty good IMO, but I really mean that it's pretty good for a videogame. I enjoyed my time with it, recommend it, would happily play and read more of it, but even then it's the whole immersive package that makes it work, and the writing mostly contributes by being above-average for its medium.
So far, whenever I followed someone's suggestion of "play this, it's text-heavy but well-written!", I ended up sorely disappointed.
Game writing tends to be derivative (all fantasy CRPGs, all AAA titles), or excessively pretentious (Sunless Seas/Skies, Cultist Simulator), or just plain low-quality either because the developers barely speak English and saw no need for proper localization (E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy, Shadow Empire) or because the writers they hired are untalented hacks (Hunt: Showdown, Destiny 2).
There may be games with good writing in genres that I don't play, but I don't really consider visual novels and the like games.
Well my ears are burning. So what media would you say has excellent writing? Because it seems to me like you object to anything that gets in the way of gameplay and your favourite games would be the likes of Galaga and Centipede.
Since your perspective is so alien to my own, I hope you don't mind some additional curiosity - what did you think of something like Super Hot, or aliens dark descent, or grim dawn? And how would you rank fire emblem, xcom and total war? Oh, and what you do you think of grand strategy games?
Hey, I do appreciate some plot and lore and world-building in games. But the formula is (quality divided by quantity). If quality isn't possible, then I do prefer the least quantity required to let the game make sense. In cases where that means no writing at all, the game is usually too simple to hold my interest.
Ah ok, that is not so inscrutable a position to me, although I am still intrigued - I would be more generous in my appraisal, but your assessments are directionally similar to mine (btw you'll hate the writing in dark descent, but if you like Brigador and XCOM I reckon you'll enjoy the gameplay.) What do you think of roguelikes like caves of qud and dcss? And one out of left field - what's your opinion of the song-writing of David Bowie?
Sorry if it feels like I'm grilling you, but your original post opened my eyes a bit - I had fallen into the wordcel trap of assuming anyone with greater intelligence than me must love words even more than me (deep down I always knew that wasn't the case, I was typical minding). And when I read your post and remembered that that was not the case, I also realised I'd never really tried to see the medium from your perspective (hence my overly reductionist opener).
Roguelikes I like.
Qud stands out as one with good world-building, which I always like playing for the atmosphere although even then I think the actual texts are somewhat overrated and pretentious.
DCSS stands out as one that's pleasantly streamlined and requires no great investment of time to play but has no plot or world-building to speak of, IIRC.
I have played many roguelikes and I like the genre, but here too good writing is rare. Even though some of them manage unique world-building or an immersive atmosphere, it's rarely down to the words.
As for David Bowie, I can't say. I'm barely able to place his music. Looking up some "best lyrics" of his on google, it seems fairly random. I'd withhold judgement on account of insufficient exposure.
Going by the standards of the Motte, it's likely that I am not more intelligent than you. Pretty sure I'm at the low end here. But while we're defending our positions - I must say that on account of having little time to play, I am very quick to dismiss any individual game as not worth my time, and so it's entirely possible that my opinions are too negative by default.
What the heck? I'm sorry for not replying earlier, I thought I did, I thought I replied yesterday but I guess it didn't take? This has been happening a lot lately.
Anyway, I thought you might like roguelikes, but I would have guessed you'd go stone soup over caves of qud. Caves of qud is so great though, although yeah it is a bit pretentious. Part of the difference here is clearly that I have a much higher tolerance for shlock and pretentiousness.
CoQ has a unique setting whereas DCSS is entirely generic. I do prefer the straightforward gameplay in DCSS, but not enough to offset Qud's merits.
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