naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
29863 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
It is a bit lame to post a twitter link and say I agree with it, but this piece resonates with me so much that I wanted to share it here. I still believe this place is majority composed of reasonable people, notwithstanding the couple of accounts that has spent the last couple of weeks plotting genocide scenarios and reliving their war on terror "they hate us for our freedoms" high one last time.
To delve deeper into the uncomfortable topic of the looming genocide, I also increasingly get the feeling that contrary to the expectations of some whose view of geopolitics is eerily similar to RTS mechanics, the genocidal military power IDF is displaying right now is ultimately going to harm Israel a lot more than it helps. I think it mainly has to do with political/military leadership trying to cover their ass and muffle their enormous failures with the sound of bombs. If IDF really goes through with their plan which seems likely to cost civilian lives in the hundreds of thousands, I don't think the nation of Israel will ever recover from this.
It is a country that is already losing two of its most powerful weapons:
Endlessly idealistic and intelligent Ashkenazi founders who knew to out-think and out-work their opponents at very turn, and most importantly to not lose the sight of their goal even when they had to take very nasty decisions at times: to create a people. Not to destroy one. These people are not only losing out in demography but also they are losing the soul of the nation. Their spirit will not survive a Gazan genocide.
Zionist influence in the Western world. Through a combination of dedication, money, human quality, well-crafted propaganda, historical guilt and Cold War positioning, Zionists has always had a very unique power position in Western institutions, especially the US ones. This is quickly disappearing. Western Jews are assimilating into the PMC deracinated blob at a breathtaking pace. They are losing the set of assumptions that motivated them to identify with their kin in Israel, and they are losing the power that comes from ethnic favoritism. A Gazan genocide is very likely going to be the final nail in the coffin here.
I fully agree that the situation with Gaza is entirely unsustainable. But if Israelis go through with what they are plotting right now, they will slowly but surely find out that they are 7 million souls surviving in an ocean of half a billion through miracles, and they are pissing in the miracle potion.
Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone
If I search for "Palestinians killed by Israeli military" and set a limit on results no later than 10/1/2023 to keep the current war out, I see stories like these:
This smells like the stats on police killings in America. The ratio is very lopsided in favor of the trained professionals, which should not be at all surprising. Similarly, if the targets submitted to arrest, then there would be no lethal violence.
And "children" is conveniently ambiguous as teenagers are plenty capable of presenting themselves as a lethal threat.
They shot more than 6,000 people and only 183 died? What were they being shot with?
That’s about 33:1.
These ratios are similarly odd:
The large-scale killing and maiming of 30 March last year, when 18 people were killed and over 700 people shot, and of 14 May, when 60 people were killed and over 1100 people shot, must not be repeated. “The shooting must stop,” said Sara Hossain.
For comparison, Steven Paddock killed 60 and wounded 400, about 7.6:1. And he wasn’t even aiming at anyone in particular. The report says that protesters were shot by military snipers.
In addition, even the UN sheepishly admits that the protestors engaged in "significant violence" but that it doesn't technically constitute a "combat or military campaign". Hamas did what it always does: It deliberately mixes violent, dangerous offenders with children and other sympathetic victims, and when in the chaos the sympathethic victims are hurt, they go complain and pretend it's Israels fault. In comparison, Hamas goes into a village and deliberately executes children.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
https://x.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520
It is a bit lame to post a twitter link and say I agree with it, but this piece resonates with me so much that I wanted to share it here. I still believe this place is majority composed of reasonable people, notwithstanding the couple of accounts that has spent the last couple of weeks plotting genocide scenarios and reliving their war on terror "they hate us for our freedoms" high one last time.
To delve deeper into the uncomfortable topic of the looming genocide, I also increasingly get the feeling that contrary to the expectations of some whose view of geopolitics is eerily similar to RTS mechanics, the genocidal military power IDF is displaying right now is ultimately going to harm Israel a lot more than it helps. I think it mainly has to do with political/military leadership trying to cover their ass and muffle their enormous failures with the sound of bombs. If IDF really goes through with their plan which seems likely to cost civilian lives in the hundreds of thousands, I don't think the nation of Israel will ever recover from this.
It is a country that is already losing two of its most powerful weapons:
I fully agree that the situation with Gaza is entirely unsustainable. But if Israelis go through with what they are plotting right now, they will slowly but surely find out that they are 7 million souls surviving in an ocean of half a billion through miracles, and they are pissing in the miracle potion.
If I search for "Palestinians killed by Israeli military" and set a limit on results no later than 10/1/2023 to keep the current war out, I see stories like these:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/20/middleeast/israeli-military-palestinians-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/22/middleeast/israeli-raid-nablus-west-bank-intl/index.html https://www.npr.org/2023/01/26/1151627428/palestinians-say-israeli-troops-kill-9-in-west-bank-raid
This smells like the stats on police killings in America. The ratio is very lopsided in favor of the trained professionals, which should not be at all surprising. Similarly, if the targets submitted to arrest, then there would be no lethal violence.
And "children" is conveniently ambiguous as teenagers are plenty capable of presenting themselves as a lethal threat.
I see your killings and raise you shooting at protestors:
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/02/no-justification-israel-shoot-protesters-live-ammunition
They shot more than 6,000 people and only 183 died? What were they being shot with?
That’s about 33:1.
These ratios are similarly odd:
For comparison, Steven Paddock killed 60 and wounded 400, about 7.6:1. And he wasn’t even aiming at anyone in particular. The report says that protesters were shot by military snipers.
In addition, even the UN sheepishly admits that the protestors engaged in "significant violence" but that it doesn't technically constitute a "combat or military campaign". Hamas did what it always does: It deliberately mixes violent, dangerous offenders with children and other sympathetic victims, and when in the chaos the sympathethic victims are hurt, they go complain and pretend it's Israels fault. In comparison, Hamas goes into a village and deliberately executes children.
Where can I read about this from a credible source?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The Israelis use .22 LR rifles as "less-lethal" weapons, IIRC. That's what's probably going on here.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link