naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
29911 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
It remains the case that any fair-minded person must be an Israel sympathizer. A hundred years ago there were Jews and Arabs living in that part of the Ottoman Empire. After the Ottoman collapse both peoples had a right to set up their own ethnostates. It has been the furiously intransigent Arab denial of this fact, not anything Israelis have done, that has been the root cause of all subsequent troubles. It is also indisputably the case, as has often been said, that if Hamas, Hezbollah, and the rest were to lay down their arms, there would be peace in Palestine, while if Israel were to lay down her arms, the Israelis would be slaughtered.
At some level, I'll agree, this is not our business. North of five million people have been slaughtered in the Congo this past twelve years, and nobody much (no, not me — how about you?) has lost a wink of sleep over it.
That just takes us back to Steve-1 and Steve-2, though. The Congo is nothing to me. Israel is something to me. It's an outpost of my civilization, organized on principles I agree with, inhabited by people I could live at ease with. They defend themselves, their borders, their interests, with the kind of vigor and thick-skinned determination I'd like to see my nation display. (If only!) I admire them and wish them well.
There's an affinity. In some tenuous sense, they are me, and I am them. The Gazans? I'll care about them right after I start caring about the Congo.
So there are a few reasons:
There's a cultural link between Israel and America. Gaza is culturally more alien than it's western supporters like to admit.
The USSR switched it's support to Muslims in the ME. After that Israel became a firm ally during the cold war and after.
Groups like Hezbollah are fundamentally enemies of the west. The end of Israel would free them up for other tasks and put the west in more danger, not less.
First off the common "Evangelical end of days" excuse is nonsense.
It was taught at my Southern Baptist church growing up when I was a believer, was also popularized by the Left Behind series, and multiple members of my family think this war is the start of the Rapture. It's not uncommon to see Israeli flags flying next to the American and Protestant flags at SBC churches.
The versions I've heard have all relied on the Temple having been rebuilt. So you get various arguments about how actually Al-Aqsa isn't quite on the same location as the Temple so it could totally be rebuilt next to the mosque. But until that actually happens, I don't see how the end times prophecies can possibly be viewed as relevant to today, even on their own terms.
The longer this world goes on, the more of the sinners who can be saved.
While the actual end result is a total victory, the time just before that is expected to be horrific beyond anything that humanity has ever experienced. Most people don't want to go through that sooner than necessary.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
First off the common "Evangelical end of days" excuse is nonsense.
John Derbyshire explains it with his usual bluntness that gets him in trouble: https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Britain/flotilla.html
So there are a few reasons:
There's a cultural link between Israel and America. Gaza is culturally more alien than it's western supporters like to admit.
The USSR switched it's support to Muslims in the ME. After that Israel became a firm ally during the cold war and after.
Groups like Hezbollah are fundamentally enemies of the west. The end of Israel would free them up for other tasks and put the west in more danger, not less.
It was taught at my Southern Baptist church growing up when I was a believer, was also popularized by the Left Behind series, and multiple members of my family think this war is the start of the Rapture. It's not uncommon to see Israeli flags flying next to the American and Protestant flags at SBC churches.
The versions I've heard have all relied on the Temple having been rebuilt. So you get various arguments about how actually Al-Aqsa isn't quite on the same location as the Temple so it could totally be rebuilt next to the mosque. But until that actually happens, I don't see how the end times prophecies can possibly be viewed as relevant to today, even on their own terms.
The most common version around here seems to be ‘the world ends when Israel falls, so don’t let it fall’.
Given that in Christian eschatology end of world is a total God victory I am confused why postponing would be a good thing.
Unless they believe in apocalypse but not in afterlife as described by Christianity? But that would be weird even for protestants.
Simple:
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link