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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   31432 thread views

Israel-Gaza Megathread #2

This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.

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First off the common "Evangelical end of days" excuse is nonsense.

John Derbyshire explains it with his usual bluntness that gets him in trouble: https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Britain/flotilla.html

It remains the case that any fair-minded person must be an Israel sympathizer. A hundred years ago there were Jews and Arabs living in that part of the Ottoman Empire. After the Ottoman collapse both peoples had a right to set up their own ethnostates. It has been the furiously intransigent Arab denial of this fact, not anything Israelis have done, that has been the root cause of all subsequent troubles. It is also indisputably the case, as has often been said, that if Hamas, Hezbollah, and the rest were to lay down their arms, there would be peace in Palestine, while if Israel were to lay down her arms, the Israelis would be slaughtered.

At some level, I'll agree, this is not our business. North of five million people have been slaughtered in the Congo this past twelve years, and nobody much (no, not me — how about you?) has lost a wink of sleep over it.

That just takes us back to Steve-1 and Steve-2, though. The Congo is nothing to me. Israel is something to me. It's an outpost of my civilization, organized on principles I agree with, inhabited by people I could live at ease with. They defend themselves, their borders, their interests, with the kind of vigor and thick-skinned determination I'd like to see my nation display. (If only!) I admire them and wish them well.

There's an affinity. In some tenuous sense, they are me, and I am them. The Gazans? I'll care about them right after I start caring about the Congo.

So there are a few reasons:

  • There's a cultural link between Israel and America. Gaza is culturally more alien than it's western supporters like to admit.

  • The USSR switched it's support to Muslims in the ME. After that Israel became a firm ally during the cold war and after.

  • Groups like Hezbollah are fundamentally enemies of the west. The end of Israel would free them up for other tasks and put the west in more danger, not less.

First off the common "Evangelical end of days" excuse is nonsense.

It was taught at my Southern Baptist church growing up when I was a believer, was also popularized by the Left Behind series, and multiple members of my family think this war is the start of the Rapture. It's not uncommon to see Israeli flags flying next to the American and Protestant flags at SBC churches.

I'd say that there have existed some people in the Evangelical movement that literally have believed the "support Israel to immanentize the Eschaton" theory, and these people and their efforts have created a wider understanding that being an Evangelical means supporting Israel, even among the Evangelicals who don't share that particular theory. This is something that's quite visible in Finland, where outright pro-Israeli views have been pretty rare (before now, at least) among the wider society, but the one, rather small sector of the society that has been visibly fervently pro-Israeli have been the Evangelicals.

The versions I've heard have all relied on the Temple having been rebuilt. So you get various arguments about how actually Al-Aqsa isn't quite on the same location as the Temple so it could totally be rebuilt next to the mosque. But until that actually happens, I don't see how the end times prophecies can possibly be viewed as relevant to today, even on their own terms.

The most common version around here seems to be ‘the world ends when Israel falls, so don’t let it fall’.

Given that in Christian eschatology end of world is a total God victory I am confused why postponing would be a good thing.

Unless they believe in apocalypse but not in afterlife as described by Christianity? But that would be weird even for protestants.

Simple:

  1. The longer this world goes on, the more of the sinners who can be saved.
  2. While the actual end result is a total victory, the time just before that is expected to be horrific beyond anything that humanity has ever experienced. Most people don't want to go through that sooner than necessary.

TIL that there’s a Protestant flag.

It’s called the ‘Christian flag’ but in practice, it’s the Protestant flag.

How is it nonsense?

When you think of the modern rebirth of the State of Israel in 1948 and the re-gathering of millions of Jewish people to Israel” 80% say these events were fulfillments of Bible prophecy that show we are getting closer to the return of Jesus Christ

45% say that the Bible has most influenced their opinions about Israel

http://research.lifeway.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Evangelical-Attitudes-Toward-Israel-Research-Study-Report.pdf

Is your claim that this poll does not reflect evangelicals views or is it that evangelicals do not influence American policy?

Why do you skip the Trump administration, which had numerous Evangelicals in high positions? Why do you ignore the Bush II admin, which had a professed Evangelical as CiC? I understand that they are out of office, but their commitments to Israel shaped the relationship that exists today. To say nothing of the Senate, which shapes foreign policy appropriations and diplomacy in critical ways, where numerous evangelicals sit and twice that many have to carefully consider the evangelical vote when making choices.

Sam Harris, whom is now insufferable, has said (ish) that we should listen to what people tell us they believe.

People have trouble believing other people are so absurdly different that they could actually believe X Y or Z ... Smoke evidence be damned.

It's an outpost of my civilization, organized on principles I agree with, inhabited by people I could live at ease with. They defend themselves, their borders, their interests, with the kind of vigor and thick-skinned determination I'd like to see my nation display. (If only!) I admire them and wish them well.

John Derbyshire most likely cannot live in Israel or among a representative sample of Israelis any more than he can live among immigrants to the West he hates so much.

I increasingly suspect that the only correct decision for any sane person is converting to Judaism or at the very least relinquishing any claim to being white, because Christian whites are just brain-damaged and cannot tell a universalist ideology (even "nationalism") from a population's game-theoretically advantageous modus operandi. Strong vibe of round-headed Slavic Hitlerists.

It is absurd to assume that a more competent entity sharing your material interests is your ally rather than a competitor.

I increasingly suspect that the only correct decision for any sane person is converting to Judaism or at the very least relinquishing any claim to being white, because Christian whites are just brain-damaged

I am tempted to go to church right now purely out of spite.

Wtf is this nonsense and laziest possible name calling?

John Derbyshire most likely cannot live in Israel or among a representative sample of Israelis any more than he can live among immigrants to the West

That depends, presumably, on why he hates the immigrants (in Derbyshire’s case the answer is surely every conceivable reason, but still). I recall your comment about Germans and Turks, something about the older generation’s general anti immigrant position being itself a rather thinly veiled “just don’t like ‘em” racial revulsion, in your opinion.

But I don’t know that all European anti-immigrant sentiment is such. Much is a more general aesthetic reaction to crime, squalor, poor upkeep of homes (especially exteriors), unappealing dress and so on. Israel has plenty of all of the above (part of my complaints about it last month, or whenever that was), but there is enough Western civilization left in parts for an expat to find a decent life, provided, probably, that he can learn Hebrew.

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