naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
random bullshit: activist greta thunberg posted a picture of herself supporting gaza. sharp eyed observers noticed the subtle dogwhistle in the background of a blue octopus plushie, and she's been forced to delete it and apologize for this dangerous display of antisemitism.
Amadan
"I would put a screwdriver through your eyeballs if I could"
yunyun333 6mo ago
I have a genuine question, because I haven't been able to find a reliable answer:
Is the "blue octopus" actually an anti-Semitic dogwhiste, like, anywhere? Or is this an association that was just invented yesterday to pile on Greta Thunberg?
I've seen the infamous Nazi cartoon, of course, and it's not unique, but octopuses have long been used to symbolize conspiracies. A fishy alien thing with lots of tentacles reaching everywhere makes a pretty convenient metaphor for any group you're accusing of being sinister infiltrators.
I have never before yesterday, however, seen the claim that blue octopus plushies, specifically, are some sort of secret mascot used by white nationalists.
If they are, I seriously doubt that Thunberg was aware of it and deliberately signaling her own hatred of Jews. So this seems a lot like people freaking out over the "okay" signal.
I also suspect that, just like the "okay" signal, we're now going to see actual white nationalists unironically adopting blue octopus plushies as mascots.
There is almost zero chance that the blue octopus was a dogwhistle. Greta is simply a very cringe person who made the very cringe decision that a frowny plushie would be the perfect accessory to her little bit of always-stupid intersectionality. Gaza is being oppwesed by Iswaew that makes me vewwy angwy ヾ( •`⌓´•)ﾉﾞ
Claims that the plushie is in fact a vital prop for neurodivergent people to communicate their emotions are so goddamn eyerolling that they probably reduced Greta's Cachet more than the incident itself.
But then, since most dogwhistles are bullshit in the first place it is certainly gratifying to see progressives fall into the same traps that they have been setting for the past 20 years. Greta has mostly gotten away with minimal damage, but the Israel/Palestine war has for the first time seen the cancel culture machine turned against progressives in earnest. Losing out on a position at a prestigious law firm is the sort of thing that used to be reserved for right wingers. I haven't quite grokked what it is about this subject that has caused such a reversal. Israel's current status as victims, maybe? Or perhaps right wingers are becoming more savvy with the weapons of wokeism.
is this an association that was just invented yesterday to pile on Greta Thunberg?
Pretty much, though perhaps not invented out of whole cloth. The situation is somewhat reminiscent of the 12-hour tabooing of the previously innocuous though perhaps slightly outdated term 'sexual preference' immediately after Amy Coney Barrett used the phrase.
It’s definitely not almost zero chance. There is a ton of antisemitism going around. You can’t just forgive everyone for being a dumb kid who did antisemitism by accident. Someone is pulling the strings.
And Greta is fairly high up decision maker in this food chain. Now perhaps she’s all manipulated by her parents but at some point the people calling for let’s kill the Jews need to be believed and are actually advocating for what they are saying.
I fail to understand how you just accidentally use a Jewish dog whistle while also fairly directly calling for Jewish genocide.
Either that or Americas left is just the global useful idiot. Hamas does literally mean drive them into the sea till they drown and the Gretas are always supporting those types.
She’s almost 21 now. At some point your not dumb kid and you just don’t accidentally do genocide promotion.
Relax man. My wife bought the same plushie - the octopus that can be flipped inside-out to show a smiling or frowning face - a few years ago because she thought it was a funny way to clarify her mood, i.e., actually angry or just hormonally incapable of expressing anything other than grumpiness.
So I for one actually buy the neurodivergent-people-excuse. And not for love of that meaningless term.
I would contest that probability. From my understanding, there is no confirmed case of a plush octopus used to signal antisemitism.
Basically anything can be a dog whistle. If there was a pound note or anything related to money in the background, they would claim that it was related to claims that the Jews controlled global finance. If it was a plush wolf, people would point out that the Nazis named lot of things after wolves. If it was a German Shepard plushy, that is obviously a reference to Hitler's dog. A goblin is /obviously/ just a stereotype of a Jewish person, so a Harry Potter book would be Problematic. Gas stoves are dog whistles for pro Holocaust positions. The signs in the photo were not written in Fraktur, just like the Nazis got rid of Fraktur. They are also written in English, a Germanic (!) language. Of course, England expelled the Jews at some point, so this is a clear call for the Jews to be expelled from both the UK and Israel. Any visible number which contains the digit sequence 18 or 88 is also antisemitic.
If Greta had placed her plushy on a globe, then I would concede that there is a significant probability that this is meant as a homage to Nazi caricatures. As it is, the octopus is the most unobjectionable part of the picture.
Please don't abuse the phrasing "listen to what people say" when you actually mean "speculate what people mean". The entire point of "take them at their word" is to take them at their literal word. If you want to use this phrase, please link a video of Greta Thunberg literally advocating Jewish genocide in those exact terms.
I find it extremely unlikely that the octopus carries any of the significance you’re attributing to it. In addition, she’s “tell[ing] you they support killing Jews” in the same sense that one of your opponents might say that people who say “I stand with Israel” or whatever are directly telling you they’re ok with apartheid and bombing children. The argument is silly no matter who uses it.
Disclaimer: I don’t care about Thunberg in general, and am annoyed to he placed in the position of defending a professional activist. Hamas and mass civilian massacres are terrible.
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Notes -
random bullshit: activist greta thunberg posted a picture of herself supporting gaza. sharp eyed observers noticed the subtle dogwhistle in the background of a blue octopus plushie, and she's been forced to delete it and apologize for this dangerous display of antisemitism.
I have a genuine question, because I haven't been able to find a reliable answer:
Is the "blue octopus" actually an anti-Semitic dogwhiste, like, anywhere? Or is this an association that was just invented yesterday to pile on Greta Thunberg?
I've seen the infamous Nazi cartoon, of course, and it's not unique, but octopuses have long been used to symbolize conspiracies. A fishy alien thing with lots of tentacles reaching everywhere makes a pretty convenient metaphor for any group you're accusing of being sinister infiltrators.
I have never before yesterday, however, seen the claim that blue octopus plushies, specifically, are some sort of secret mascot used by white nationalists.
If they are, I seriously doubt that Thunberg was aware of it and deliberately signaling her own hatred of Jews. So this seems a lot like people freaking out over the "okay" signal.
I also suspect that, just like the "okay" signal, we're now going to see actual white nationalists unironically adopting blue octopus plushies as mascots.
There is almost zero chance that the blue octopus was a dogwhistle. Greta is simply a very cringe person who made the very cringe decision that a frowny plushie would be the perfect accessory to her little bit of always-stupid intersectionality. Gaza is being oppwesed by Iswaew that makes me vewwy angwy ヾ( •`⌓´•)ﾉﾞ
Claims that the plushie is in fact a vital prop for neurodivergent people to communicate their emotions are so goddamn eyerolling that they probably reduced Greta's Cachet more than the incident itself.
But then, since most dogwhistles are bullshit in the first place it is certainly gratifying to see progressives fall into the same traps that they have been setting for the past 20 years. Greta has mostly gotten away with minimal damage, but the Israel/Palestine war has for the first time seen the cancel culture machine turned against progressives in earnest. Losing out on a position at a prestigious law firm is the sort of thing that used to be reserved for right wingers. I haven't quite grokked what it is about this subject that has caused such a reversal. Israel's current status as victims, maybe? Or perhaps right wingers are becoming more savvy with the weapons of wokeism.
Pretty much, though perhaps not invented out of whole cloth. The situation is somewhat reminiscent of the 12-hour tabooing of the previously innocuous though perhaps slightly outdated term 'sexual preference' immediately after Amy Coney Barrett used the phrase.
It’s definitely not almost zero chance. There is a ton of antisemitism going around. You can’t just forgive everyone for being a dumb kid who did antisemitism by accident. Someone is pulling the strings.
And Greta is fairly high up decision maker in this food chain. Now perhaps she’s all manipulated by her parents but at some point the people calling for let’s kill the Jews need to be believed and are actually advocating for what they are saying.
I fail to understand how you just accidentally use a Jewish dog whistle while also fairly directly calling for Jewish genocide.
Either that or Americas left is just the global useful idiot. Hamas does literally mean drive them into the sea till they drown and the Gretas are always supporting those types.
She’s almost 21 now. At some point your not dumb kid and you just don’t accidentally do genocide promotion.
Relax man. My wife bought the same plushie - the octopus that can be flipped inside-out to show a smiling or frowning face - a few years ago because she thought it was a funny way to clarify her mood, i.e., actually angry or just hormonally incapable of expressing anything other than grumpiness.
So I for one actually buy the neurodivergent-people-excuse. And not for love of that meaningless term.
She chooses to put one item in the picture. What’s the probability of that one item being associated with antisemitism? 1 in 50k?
It doesn’t make any Bayesian sense to take the assumption it wasn’t on purpose.
I would contest that probability. From my understanding, there is no confirmed case of a plush octopus used to signal antisemitism.
Basically anything can be a dog whistle. If there was a pound note or anything related to money in the background, they would claim that it was related to claims that the Jews controlled global finance. If it was a plush wolf, people would point out that the Nazis named lot of things after wolves. If it was a German Shepard plushy, that is obviously a reference to Hitler's dog. A goblin is /obviously/ just a stereotype of a Jewish person, so a Harry Potter book would be Problematic. Gas stoves are dog whistles for pro Holocaust positions. The signs in the photo were not written in Fraktur, just like the Nazis got rid of Fraktur. They are also written in English, a Germanic (!) language. Of course, England expelled the Jews at some point, so this is a clear call for the Jews to be expelled from both the UK and Israel. Any visible number which contains the digit sequence 18 or 88 is also antisemitic.
If Greta had placed her plushy on a globe, then I would concede that there is a significant probability that this is meant as a homage to Nazi caricatures. As it is, the octopus is the most unobjectionable part of the picture.
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If it had been a frowning dog, would we be talking about Blondie right now?
No we will just listen to what people say. And when they tell you they support killing Jews we will take them at their word.
If a nazi walked around with an easy bake oven I’m not going to assume it meant he just wanted a cupcake
Please don't abuse the phrasing "listen to what people say" when you actually mean "speculate what people mean". The entire point of "take them at their word" is to take them at their literal word. If you want to use this phrase, please link a video of Greta Thunberg literally advocating Jewish genocide in those exact terms.
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I find it extremely unlikely that the octopus carries any of the significance you’re attributing to it. In addition, she’s “tell[ing] you they support killing Jews” in the same sense that one of your opponents might say that people who say “I stand with Israel” or whatever are directly telling you they’re ok with apartheid and bombing children. The argument is silly no matter who uses it.
Disclaimer: I don’t care about Thunberg in general, and am annoyed to he placed in the position of defending a professional activist. Hamas and mass civilian massacres are terrible.
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