This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
How do you think the Hausa or Fulani are likely to respond if an Igbo comes up to them and says that, actually, on account of his people’s average IQ being at least one standard deviation above the Nigerian average, they ought to be in charge of the country and occupy the majority of the top jobs in Lagos and Abuja and so on? How do antisemitic white nationalists respond if you tell them that actually it’s a good thing that Jews are disproportionately in positions of power because we are, in fact, significantly smarter than them on average and that effect is exacerbated in the long tail at IQ 160+ (so we deserve it really)? Sorry incels, you’re just ugly, Chad deserves his roster and you deserve to die a virgin because he won the genetic lottery and you lost it.
All these positions exist. I’ve heard every one of them in real life myself. I agree, largely, with all of them, because I was born a rich and OK-looking Jewess and I have worked with a number of very competent Igbos. The logic that I deserve what I have suits me.
But these arguments make their interlocutors very angry. They certainly don’t serve to reduce the social tensions that exist between groups even when some inequality between them is inevitable. “Yeah, akshually we should be in charge because SCIENCE proves we’re naturally better than you, sorry, sucks to be you I guess” is not a viable mode of long-term social relations without a radical and unlikely reversal of the entire post-1789/1776 project.
That’s the point Hanania’s making.
I don’t think you’re engaging with the issues I raised.
I don’t disagree that a lot of HBD types are dumb and selected for disagreeability and/or liking racism, not better traits. But that’s what you get when social desirability bias really punishes witches or anything close to it.
“We deserve it really”
I mean yeah, inasmuch as anyone deserves the fruits of their labor and natural abilities. Believing foul play is involved instead seems well-proven to lead to bad outcome for the Jews. Open competition, markets, and meritocracy are going to let talent rise and we plainly see group imbalances all over, like in sports.
Ultimately, in the West at least, individualism and equality under the law seem like the best option, but denying reality seems unlikely to help.
(Also, it is socially acceptable to punch down at incels so maybe the status quo there isn’t great.)
I don’t really disagree with you at all. I think the answers to these positions are nuanced, though, and I think that the message that pushing HBD sends to members of lower performing groups is detrimental to social cohesion and to a well-functioning economy because it inevitably leads to backlash.
And it is relevant that when you ask HBD proponents what policy implications they draw from it there are usually a substantial number of them, even though HBD by itself doesn’t prescribe any particular policy, it’s just an explanation. And in a rare moment of agreement with Darwin / @guesswho, I think we should be honest that this is actually in large part about black and white people in America and their relations. And so if we listen to a lot of HBD proponents like Murray and ‘accept’ it and dismantle those programs that largely benefit those communities, and abolish / criminalize affirmative action and so on, do we really think that the social problems we see in black communities are going to improve? That issues with eg violence are going to improve? It just seems very unlikely to me.
I’m not saying the current system is good because it isn’t. But I often think HBD activists are very naive about the reasons why stuff like affirmative action was implemented (often by politicians who were pretty racist). It wasn’t because of Robin Di Angelo logic, it was often because they didn’t want to see the country burn.
Problem is that the anti-HBDers are not standing in place: recent anti-policing pushes have made black communities worse off.
It's not simply "keep what works even if you have to lie about it". The other theory has motivated policy that is now not only hurting black people but affecting others, with no sign of stopping.
The latter is a much less attractive status quo.
A black guy gets shot by police at the wrong time and the country may burn anyway.
Yes and it's no coincidence that those Anti-policing pushes have been spearheaded by the same class of people who are spearheading HBD awareness, namely secular progressive Democrats. The party of Woodrow Wilson and the KKK never changed sides, just their branding.
If secular progressive Democrats were spearheading HBD awareness, it would already be taught as gospel in elementary schools. This claim is simply nonsense.
I think his point is that yelling "DON'T THINK ABOUT ELEPHANTS" at the top of your voice on every street corner is going to make people start looking around for elephants.
I think that assuming this to be intentional is in violation of Hanlon's Razor, though.
To think progressives are deliberately promoting HBD because they're old-South style racists playing 11-d chess is actually impressively deranged.
I don't think it's "deranged" so much as a plain reading of the text.
Look around. Who do you see pushing for more racial "consciousness" or "consideration" in US Government policy? It isn't Conservative Christians, or Reagan-style "Big Tent" Republicans. It's Midwestern Democrats, edgy blue-tribe socialists on Twitter/in the media, and various other flavors of secular progressive. Look at where the racial tensions have boiled over in recent years, it's progressive strongholds like Minneapolis, Chicago, San Fransisco, and New York.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link