site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 15, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The right of self-determination of Ukrainians is first and foremost not to be sent into a meatgrinder by conscription officers. The women of Ukraine have this right, and like a lot of modern people in that situation, they simply choose to live somewhere else.

To the most liberal, Western-minded young Ukrainians the 'special military operation' has been a great bounty. They finally were able to obtain a visa to Miami, NYC, Los Angeles or any European capital. They'll probably pay lip-service to the 'cause' to assure their status in their local circle of liberals, but they might not be thinking of ever going back.

Perhaps the middle-aged Ukrainians who have not grown up with Western propaganda online and feel unable to learn a foreign language go either way, they are attached to their country and see Russians either as enemies or former brothers in the Soviet Union.

Then there are the retirees who are (probably?) exempt from conscription, and may still feel nostalgic for the glory days of Bandera and think perhaps the wrong guys won the 'Great Patriotic War'. I'm not sure how they reconcile that with a desire to join NATO/EU or even voting for Zelensky.

Either way I think the most important development in all of this is that post-internet, nationalism cannot really be a thing. It's hard to convince the youth to die for your government after years of telling them that the people who just arrived have as much of a claim to the country as they do.

What's the difference if Russia takes Ukraine? That's like a change in government. Before it was Trump, now it's Biden.

Would an American zoomer care if China bombed the local strip mall, apartment complex full of Somalis and Venezuelians, the Indian-owned gas station, the gender-correction clinic etc? Perhaps they want to die for 'transkids'? Maybe if China bombed Instagram's or Netflix' servers and made it go dark they'd care? If the situation is too dire they can always move somewhere else (if somewhere else is at peace, that is), after all they were told they would own nothing and they'd be happy, so why here specifically?

Who on this website would go die in a trench for their government and under what circumstances? This is the first step to clear before allowing yourself to symbolically vote for somebody who wants to 'ear-mark' money for these foreign wars.

What's the difference if Russia takes Ukraine? That's like a change in government. Before it was Trump, now it's Biden.

What's the difference if Biden stole the election? It's a change of government either way.

Except in this case, the guy in charge of the new government first shelled the fuck out of the previous government, including many cities, and his campaign is "your party isn't legitimate, your country isn't real and we will literally dismantle all of that". Not really the kind of behavior that promises benevolent governing.

What's the difference if Russia takes Ukraine? That's like a change in government. Before it was Trump, now it's Biden.

Are you being sarcastic? If not, this feels like the worst comparison I have read on the internet in a long time.

The power of the US president is subject to checks and balances. If the people don't like him, they can vote them out next time. Also, compared to the worst case governments, Biden and Trump are basically the same thing with minor nitpicks. A worst case government would be someone trying to forcibly trying to turn the US into some ethnostate or into a Stalinist dystopia. If you think having to travel to another state to get an abortion or a federal ban on scary looking guns is the worst thing a government can do, look at the Holodomor instead.

What is the worst thing that stupid evil tyrant can do if he conquers us is a question to which we have reasonable lower bounds from history. Government decisions are the difference between North Korea and South Korea.

Either way I think the most important development in all of this is that post-internet, nationalism cannot really be a thing. It's hard to convince the youth to die for your government after years of telling them that the people who just arrived have as much of a claim to the country as they do.

That seems more like an argument that nationalism is incompatible with a modern, liberal, cosmopolitan society. Which, honestly, I don't think anyone on either side would argue with you on that.

That doesn't mean it can't necessarily be a thing in modern times, it just means that nationalists have to be willing to jettison at least one or more of of [modern|liberal|cosmopolitan]. And in the circles where nationalism flourishes online even jettisoning all three of them is quite popular.

Either way I think the most important development in all of this is that post-internet, nationalism cannot really be a thing.

why you think so?

It's hard to convince the youth to die for your government after years of telling them that the people who just arrived have as much of a claim to the country as they do.

Why you think it is universal situation? Or applicable to Ukraine at all? Are you aware that Ukraine is really poor and has basically no incoming economical migrants?

Who on this website would go die in a trench for their government and under what circumstances?

For my government? No realistic scenario. Willing to die in a trench? If alternative would be that I will likely die shot by invaders or my friends/family will be harmed. Or out of pure annoyance at Russia invading again.

Though I would strongly prefer to kill Russian soldiers in their trench via remotely operated drone. Rather than dying in trench myself.

And even more I would prefer this situation to be inapplicable at all.

(yes, I am aware that Russia invading Poland within next 50 years is say 1% - still uncomfortably high, and currently main military risk for my country)

Either way I think the most important development in all of this is that post-internet, nationalism cannot really be a thing.

Someone has never run into a bunch of people from different Balkan countries online.

Are they at war or just LARPing online?

Yes.

The right of self-determination of Ukrainians is first and foremost not to be sent into a meatgrinder by conscription officers.

Pic unrelated?

Pic of soldiers holding civilians at gunpoint from the incident that made Biden reflect that he doesn't want his children to live in "a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point." A race war meatgrinder so to speak.

Hmm, remind me how many people died during the School Integration Wars? And who the conscription officers were?

I don't have an exact number, probably between 10,000 and 100,000, maybe more, it's still ongoing. Here's one recent injured that made the news.

The conscription officers are the media agents, the Civil Rights judges, the CPS workers, the National Guard as in the picture, the cops...

So in the Ukraine war, you're minding your own business, get conscripted at gunpoint, then sent to the front where a Russian drops a shell on your head with high probability.

In the School Integration War, you try to intimidate a child, then the cops tell you to fuck off, then with 99.9..% probability your life goes on unaffected.

It really is the same!

Either way I think the most important development in all of this is that post-internet, nationalism cannot really be a thing.

It not only can, but is. Splinternets have been a thing for quite awhile now and all countries (including the US) engage in this sort of cyber balkanization. Russia does it quite successfully in service of their domestic, nationalistic goals.

Who on this website would go die in a trench for their government and under what circumstances? This is the first step to clear before allowing yourself to symbolically vote for somebody who wants to 'ear-mark' money for these foreign wars

At this point I'd die for the Russian government before I would the US, as a home grown American.

It not only can, but is. Splinternets have been a thing for quite awhile now and all countries (including the US) engage in this sort of cyber balkanization.

Yes, so Ukraine does not qualify as a country (therefore Ukrainian nationalism is an oxymoron) by that definition, as its citizens are either living in the Western memeplex of the EU/US or of Russia's.

That's quite the jump. But the latter is how it's always happened. Most nations live in the sphere of influence of their region's biggest power.