Tollund_Man4
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User ID: 501
Tollund_Man4
11mo ago
I think this is a big problem with Irish political tradition.
We have two main forms of immune system against bad policy: precedent, which up until recently was a strong conservative force in Irish politics (despite a revolution we kept the common law and many of the older British institutions), and an aversion to making the same mistakes that the British did.
We do criticise our own politicians for doing wrong, but still some threats just have no precedent in our history and we lack the general suspicion of government that allows the Americans to shout tyranny whenever the government crosses certain lines. If hate speech laws and whatever else the government passes in the next few years are going to lead to some soft form of tyranny, it will have to be a painful lesson we learn for the first time rather than something we wouldn't allow to happen in the first place.
Tollund_Man4
11mo ago
I could well be mistaken but I was under the impression that, while not inclined to be particularly favourably disposed to the British armed forces, nor were the Irish notably supportive of nationalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland, and the anti-British feeling was only virulent among northern nationalists, not especially any more among Irish themselves.
This is all true, but you don't need to be generally anti-British to have qualms about their armed forces. A couple of years back the Irish government ran into some embarrasment over a planned commemoration for the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police. People in the Republic were still not comfortable with the idea of honouring a since dissolved organisation which committed atrocities 100 years ago, the government misjudged this and ended up cancelling the event. The memory of the British military is much fresher, and news stories about the extent of MI5 and British Army Intelligence Corps' collusion with paramilitaries during the Troubles still rile people up.
You'd have be, what, pushing 70 to be 18 at the time of Bloody Sunday?
That quote about 100 miles being a long distance in Europe and 100 years being a long time in America seems relevant. Some very old soldiers have been brought to court for their role in Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy massacre and that being in the news has brought a lot of memories back.
Tollund_Man4
11mo ago
Here's a somewhat phenomenological idea which I'm just going to throw out there: these people don't recognise anything American about their discourse because it's genuinely not quite the same until there are domestic right-wing American views to contrast with.
The experience of an Irish left-winger is of a civilised country which has shed itself of its own brand of backwards conservatism pointing and laughing at the most recent thing the insane Yanks have gotten up to. No one entertains the idea that there will be any disagreement about this so they voice it freely at work and the like. It's not until a domestic voice gives opposition that the re-enactment of America is complete, the conception of the normal Irish citizen just being a nice person is shifted into Americanised Irish left-winger vs Americanised Irish right-winger, a faithful re-enactment of America involves hating each other after all. It's no surprise that they accuse the right-winger of bringing American politics into it, until the right-winger started to play his role the fact that we were all just re-enacting America hadn't yet become clear.
The real original Irish discourse takes place between old school leftists and a newly minted radical right arguing over which side holds claim to the nationalist cause. This is the stuff that doesn't make any sense in an American context, Americans themselves aren't interested in it, and there is enough substantive thought (a benefit of having a revolution instigated by poets and playwrights educated in the Victorian style) that original debate can be had. It's where everything interesting in Irish political thought happens.
Tollund_Man4
11mo ago
It is bewildering to consider how little people (apart from the two formed and ongoing "Covid tribes" - lockdown/vaccine skeptics on one hand, zero-covidists still wearing masks on the other hand) care about Covid now, considering how large it loomed for two years
I think it will be a defining moment in Ireland in a non-obvious sense (i.e. aside from the economic damage, govermnent overreach etc). For all the crazies that were involved in the anti-lockdown movement (I say this as an unvaccinated person with many friends in the same boat), and for how weak open dissent was during that time, anti-lockdowners managed to organise enough to build a base of dissidents (in the sense of being enemies of almost every political party) that has outlasted the pandemic.
Protesting isn't very common in Ireland, and when it happens it's usually the farmers, socialists, or some American thing like BLM, but since the pandemic we have seen some pretty big protests against asylum seekers that draw from a completely new base, and with these new hate speech laws I expect to see more. I can't tell if the people protesting asylum seekers are the same people who protested the lockdowns (though this is a common accusation), but in any case dissidents are braver, more energetic and more organised than before. The organising has had to be done from scratch so it's still very poor, but if someone could find a banner to unite these seemingly separate groups there could be some real opposition to the last few years of Irish governance.
Pessimistically, they don't organise but it will still be a defining moment in that in likening future protests to the anti-lockdowners the government has the perfect smear to shut opposition down.
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
6 weeks of vacation? On what planet does the average guy making $40k trying to work up to a position that makes 60k have that?
This is actually easier if you're making less than 40k. It's very easy to find a shitty job so just quit and there'll be another equally shitty one available when you come back. I've got friends who have done this.
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
You might as well say that a conquered state is "mentally" enslaved.
People do say that. This is a common refrain among nationalists, and apparently enough motivation for them to put their lives on the line in rebellion.
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
But when it's paired with "vote until they vote right" it seems hardly honest
Same thing happened with the Lisbon Treaty referenda in Ireland. The first try it was rejected in 2008, they held it again the next year and it passed.
Tollund_Man4
1mo ago
Ireland
In an unexpected change of tune Sinn Féin have come out against the controversial hate speech bill, citing their own experience being on the wrong end of censorship and the refusal to include their proposed amendments to the bill. This is especially strange given that they voted in favour of the bill at every stage of the process so far. Leo Varadkar has accused the party of cowardice and falling prey to "an online campaign of misinformation".
They've also come out against the EU migration pact saying that Irish immigration policy should be decided in Ireland. The migration pact seems like it would solve some of the immigration problems the EU is facing so Sinn Féin's opposition isn't a move to the right on the face of it, but they have said they agree with some parts of the agreement so the objection doesn't seem to stem from their being against stemming the flow of migrants.
Tollund_Man4
5mo ago
Ireland.
Migrant protests are back. Rosslare - a town of 2,100 - has become the site of a 1,000 person blockade of Rosslare Europort after the government announced they planned to house 400 migrant men in the Great Southern Hotel. 300 male asylum seekers are already being housed in the town so this proposal would fairly drastically change its makeup.
Unlike most migrant protests this one has the support of local politicians and started after a breakdown in negotiations between the government and local leaders. With actual political leaders involved it will be a lot harder for someone like Tommy Robinson show up and make it look like this is being organised by foreign provocateurs, clearly the views of locals are what is fuelling this.
I’m not sure how the economic importance of the Europort will come into play, there’s a lot more inventive for the government to settle this quickly but unless they win the public image battle arresting people and going ahead with the original plan won’t be a good look.
Tollund_Man4
9mo ago
The existence of God can be perceived experientially, and is probably a more robust evidence for God than mere philosophical puzzling (Colossians 2:8).
First hand experience is limited as a means to knowledge. Philosophical puzzling can get you out of the rabbit holes that raw experience can leave you in.
I could take LSD and have it revealed to me that some form of atheistic Buddhism is the fundamental reality. What could you say to me in response if you're saying experience can trump reasoning? You'd be preventing yourself from making the obvious refutation that I was experiencing a drug-induced delusion.
Tollund_Man4
10mo ago
I haven't verified the authenticity of this (I found it off some nobody on Twitter, and they were a left-leaning pro-capitulation to these ethnics)
It's on the UNSA Twitter (with a follow-up post saying that the 'we are at war' phrase was a reference to Macron saying the same about COVID.)
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
Living out one's ideals is a costly signal of sincerity, and achieving success and happiness by doing so is the least refutable argument
I can think of one line of reasoning to refute this argument: what if your success is owed far more to factors other than your ideals? If you were born smart, handsome and wealthy, you're probably going to be succesful even with the most vapid ideals. If you were born poor, ugly and sick then the path to success and happiness is going to be a hard one even if you're guided by the best ideals.
Or maybe everyone is indeed trying to do this, and most just don't seem very effective from my particular vantage point / vis-a-vis my conception of the good life?
While the majority of people are just not consistent and don't explicitly follow ideals, I think this is a large part of the problem. There are plenty of strict vegans and Muslims out there exemplifying their ideals, but are you persuaded? If you don't share the core moral religious belief in the first place then the discipline someone exemplifies in following a religious rule isn't more impressive than any other type of discipline, it's just odd.
For example you say that religious people are more likely to thrive, but do they thrive in a sense that say a feminist could agree on? Both sides exemplify their ideals, neither side sees something they want to imitate. Outside of the stuff most people agree on like health and wealth, persuading people that an example of your values being adhered to is an example of something good means grappling directly with the moral question.
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
Many people I know take serious pride and work, and in fact for a lot of people their work is the most important thing in their life. I’m talking people who don’t even really need the money, or who claim that even if they had enough money to retire they would continue working just as much as they do now.
Are those people working the same jobs that people are leaving in large numbers? I don't think many would work in fast food if they didn't need the money.
Ireland
Some interesting developments in the refugee saga and some more of the same:
(i) The more of the same was a fire at a convent in Longford earmarked to host 85 Ukrainian refugees. This is the first time Ukrainians have been the target as far as I'm aware. Ukrainians aren't considered asylum seekers as they are granted refugee status immediately and don't have to be confined to one place until they are processed, but they do spend some time in emergency accomodation given how hard it is to find a place to rent in Ireland. A local Fine Gael counciller said that he was aware that there were rumours circulating that the building was going to be used for asylum seekers so maybe the arsonists mistakenly targeted this place or maybe they just assumed that if it's going to be used for Ukrainians it will eventually be used for asylum seekers.
(ii) A protest in Roscrea, Co. Tipperary became unusually violent as protesters attempted to block a bus carrying 17 asylum seekers (out of a proposed 160) from entering a hotel that had recently been repurposed as asylum accomodation. The protest was broken up by police (the first time that this has happened besides the Dublin riot) and the fact that some of the asylum seekers were women and children has given the protesters some bad PR.
Roscrea has a population of 5,500 and already has an asylum centre and is hosting Ukrainian refugees in another building so they've got more of a reason to complain than most, the hotel was also closed on short notice last Thursday with job losses and wedding party cancellations. The fact that locals supplied the protesters with food and firewood is a mark against the narrative that these protests are the work of a small group of troublemakers with no links to the local communities travelling from town to town. As far as politicians go local counciller Shane Lee took part in the protest and Tipperary Independent TD (member of parliament) Mattie McGrath criticised the government's handling of the situation.
(iii) Mayo County Council has voted to cease co-operation with the Department of Children, Integration, and Youth:
The motion, spearheaded by Independent Councillor Michael Kilcoyne, calls for an immediate halt to collaboration with government officials until clear plans are in place for the provision of essential services, such as medical care, transportation, training, and delivery schedules.
Councillor Kilcoyne spoke on the importance of equal distribution across national constituencies, challenging the disproportionate burden placed on Mayo compared to other regions.
This is a non-binding resolution from an institution that doesn't control much in the first place but it's interesting to see politicians sticking their neck out for a cause that is popular in polling but extremely unpopular in the media.
(iv) Finally Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said that the government will likely take the option of paying money rather than directly taking in migrants under a new EU pact. Dealing with this problem through the EU seems like a good answer to the "international obligation" argument for taking in more migrants, and since the EU is both very popular in Ireland and composed of countries which are far more familiar with the downstream consequences of mass migration this seems like a way to reduce immigration while avoiding the shame of Ireland being seen as racist (whether or not Europeans actually think that about us doesn't matter as much as whether Irish people think they think that).
Edit One more story: Chainsaw-wielding man jumped out of van and threatened security guards at Dublin 4 building earmarked for migrants.
Tollund_Man4
7mo ago
Conservatism used to be about avoiding rapid change due to the possibility of unforeseen consequences. Now it seems to embrace it.
This leaves conservatives with few useful tools to counteract rapid change which has already produced its consequences. I need to reread Burke, but I don't think there's anything about conservatism that would preclude modern day versions of an invasion of France to restore the monarchy.
Tollund_Man4
8mo ago
They are not Greco-Romans.
Neither are most of the people in history have tried to recapture the Greco-Roman spirit (including Nietzsche himself).
I’m far from the first commentator to notice that our societies appear to be lurching in a similar direction; the woman strutting around my local sidewalk in a thong, with no fear of repercussions nor even social censure, content that any frustration or angst she generates in nearby males is highly unlikely to redound negatively toward her, strikes me as symptomatic of this development.
I'd be interested in hearing what you make of the possibility that Ireland was an equally lude society in the 16th century, was this also symptomatic of a decline into a Minoan style society or is it a fashion that can have various causes?
Their dresses have wide sleeves, open the length of the arms interlaced very nicely in a lattice. Generally the men, women and young girls wear their shirts open to the waist, without any distinction between them except the women's chemises, as they are over here, are wide below, tapering into four tails which hit the knees as the case may be. So that most young women and girls have their chests naked to the waist; it is as common there to see or touch the breast of a girl or woman, as it is to touch her hand. And so, there are as many different fashions and customs as there are countries. Over here we would mock this because it is not the usual custom, except in secret when Robin and Marian are in an amorous embrace.
There I saw all sorts of breasts according to age. There I saw nipples of girls aged twelve years; afterwards the nipples that they have when they are fourteen or fifteen years old, until they begin to develop in size and shape. Also I saw some completely developed, so very round and pert that it was a pleasure to see them, as here have the marriageable girls of eighteen years and above. I also saw all sorts of tits, middle sizes, big, shapely and in the open hand one would call them firm but yielding. And I saw some so disgusting and unsavoury that I marvelled where the little children could receive their daily nourishment. Also I saw others which were not at all worth looking at, so ugly and wrinkled were they and only deserve the name of flaccid udders.
we still didn’t use our leverage to push actual NI independence
Northern Ireland is complicated by the fact that up until very recently a majority of the people living there saw themselves as being just as British as those on the island of Britain (this might still be the case but it has gotten much closer). It wouldn't be so much granting independence as it would be forcing the majority to join a nation they want no part in.
Tollund_Man4
11mo ago
It has not within living memory shot protesters en masse in the streets or run them over with tanks. It does not throw its citizens into internment camps for believing in the wrong religion.
Not to say that the UK is as bad as China, but this isn't strictly true. 1971 saw British troops shoot dozens of protesters or just people going about their day indiscriminately with Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy massacre. And 2000 people were interned without trial, some being tortured, in Northern Ireland over 4 years starting in 1971.
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
If people simply appeal to the 'better ten guilty go free than one innocent be imprisoned' platitude forever, what is to stop the richest cities in the world turning into uncivilized eyesores?
The 'better ten guilty to free than one innocent be imprisoned' notion far precedes the richest cities in the world becoming uncivilised eyesores. If people in past times managed to have nice cities while still believing in this principle must we really do away with it if we want nice cities now?
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
As I understand it, the principle behind “Anti-Colonialism” is that Group A is never entitled to move into Group B’s space and take it over, replacing Group B’s preferred culture and/or method of governance with Group A’s preferred culture and/or method of governance, thereby subjugating Group B as second class in their own space.
All this by means of violence is a big aspect of the objection to colonialism I think you're missing.
With an “Open Borders” mindset, there is no stopping Groups B-Z from moving into Group A’s space and altering its culture or assuming control of its institutions if any of those Groups does so with enough numbers or organization. “Open Borders,” on principle, refutes the very notion of any group’s ownership of any space, which more or less dismantles the paradigm of “Anti-Colonialism.” How do these two ideas co-exist in the same mind without producing uncomfortable cognitive dissonance?
But are group B-Z altering Group A's culture and assuming control of its institutions by means of violence? If not, and if violence is the aspect of colonialism that people object to, then there is no tension between the positions of open borders and anti-colonialism.
There's a reason that anti-Open Borders people draw attention to lawless migrant enclaves in big cities where rules different to the ones legally sanctioned are enforced by the sword: They want to say that open borders will lead to the same objectionable consequences as colonialism.
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
On the one hand this seems a bit misguided: if you're going to send death threats to someone, shouldn't it be a literal neo-Nazi, rather than someone who generally supports trans rights but still thinks female-only spaces are important in a few limited contexts?
Isn't that what "Punch a Nazi" is for? You send death threats to people which they will work on, and act violent towards people you think won't be persuaded by anything else.
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
maybe because it's unpopular to be seen as an apologist for alchohol consumption.
It's interesting that this isn't at all true when you phrase it in, let's say 'populist' terms. But when you try to make the same argument in more academic terms you invite unpopularity.
Tollund_Man4
1yr ago
Jews have a high IQ and HBD would tell you that getting rid of them is a bad idea.
Would it? Of course it was an evil thing to do for other reasons, but the Nazis didn't persecute the Jews because they thought they were stupid, they did it because they considered them to be dangerous. Jews showing smarts could only make them seem more threatening.
Ireland owes a lot to America for independence. A great deal of this is due to the embittered Irish American community, who were always more radical than the ones living on the island, providing organisation and funding for basically every nationalist political group, but specifically the IRB whose leadership instigated the 1916 Rising. This wasn't yet anti-colonialism per se as it's Americans rather than the American government, but during the 1920s it was America's trumpeting the right to self-determination that implicitly constrained Britain from waging the much larger war that would have been needed to put down the IRA (though tiny in comparison to the one they had just fought in Europe). Michael Collins himself recognised the debt he owed:
From Collins' Why Britain Sought Irish Peace.
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