This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The last gasp of the europoor
For years, I've been treated to a steady diet of smug elitism coming from effete liberal Europeans laughing at obese, gun-toting and bible-thumpin' Americans. This reached its crescendo during the George W. Bush administration, took a lull during the Obama years and was resurrected after Trump took office.
The American was an ignoramus, a loud-mouth, a religious fundamentalist and irreversibly stupid. Hopelessly inferior to us sophisticated and cosmopolitan Europeans. Did you know half of Americans don't even own a passport? Most don't even know a second language!? Ha! And don't get me started on their healthcare, their gun crime and all other sorts of social pathologies. America, you see, is a third world nation masquerading as a first world one.
But as the years went by, these smirks felt increasingly hollow. The economic distance - and with it, standard of living - between the two major partners is growing wider by the day. A young French econ professor at Wharton lays out the bad news over just how deluded his fellow Europeans are on this question. Prominent FT columnists have noted the same.
Yet, perhaps there is still time to save the last shreds of honor for us poor Europeans. For one, the gap in PPP terms doesn't seem to be changing much. Europe has been behind for a long time. In terms of total GDP, the situation is much the same. Another aspect is that Europeans tend to work fewer hours.
While some of these arguments may have some validity, they all feel like desperate excuses. I for one am very much happy to see the insufferable elitism of Europeans slowly being wiped off our collective smug faces. The uncouth and primitive barbarian across the ocean turned out to be smarter and harder-working all along.
Perhaps this can also lead to a more pro-capitalist liberalism in the US. For much of my upbringing, liberal Americans were typified by folks such as Michael Moore and his obsessive admiration of the European welfare state. Colbert's snark about the embarrassing Red State American always felt like an underhanded way to gain favor with declassé elites across the ocean. Ann Coulter's observation that liberal elites in the US loved soccer because it is European surely hit closer to home than many in the media were willing to admit.
Of course, there is still some amount of liberal American simping left in the bag. This is perhaps most obvious whenever there are discussions on urban policy and the words "walkable city" invariably comes up. (To be clear, I actually think Europe gets this part better than the US).
Outside of an increasingly narrowing set of areas where Europe still outperforms, we are slowly witnessing a reshuffling of the deck. The old illusions are slowly coming undone and reddit-tier arguments about the US being a third world hellhole are convincing fewer by the day. At long last, after years of insufferable and unjustified smug elitism, the europoor is finally unmasked as the sham living on a lie that he always was. And I couldn't be happier.
Some of this does seem to culture warry.
And I have a different thought is this actually controversial or just a truth everyone knows and you just built a strawman?
There was a period when this was less truthy and I’d guess 1980-2008. And then Europeans did have a bit of looking down on us as close to economic equals and better lifestyles.
Since then two big things happened. Shale oil happened making America no longer a petro beggar and a big terms of trade change when you’re not shipping off a few billion a day to import oil and big tech took off. I think shale oil is extremely underrated for boosting American wealth.
Also, everyone in the world sees Americans middle/lower class. We export voyeurship of that. Americans see pretty European capitals. I assume there are more but off the top of my head I only know of two media properties that show Europeans underclass. Trainspotting I forgot the whole plot but something something Edinburgh and Heroin. And Gomorrah shows a lot of Italian slums in Naples and poverty. Poverty America doesn’t have with white people.
Passport stuff anyone smart realized at some point going to France from Germany is just going to Pennsylvania from NY and same with languages.
This is a good point. The export of shows like Jerry Springer in the 1990s and later exposés of how poor whites (derisively called "trailer trash") live their lives gave an unfounded impression that America is far poorer than it actually is. In a way, it's inadvertently proving US cultural dominance.
It reminds me of 4th of July LARPing in Eastern Europe. Yes, it's actually a thing and as you can see, many are going for the "redneck living in a trailer aesthetic". Which is ironic given their own position in the world's income ladder.
US energy prices are absurdly cheap compared to the EU, even before the 2022 war broke out. I'd also add that the US is the world's largest magnet to top talent from all around the world. It's often the very high-end who are driving prosperity and everyone else is just sort of going along for the ride.
Have they actually been exported? I'm probably the poster boy for thorough Americanization via TV, and I have never seen Jerry Springer, only heard about it second hand. When we imported reality TV, it was usually through adaptation.
I have never seen anyone miss the point this badly. You never heard that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? Their position on the world's ladder (and status is a lot more relevant than income here) is probably why they sympathize with, and LARP as Rednecks to begin with.
Yeah, the Polish redneck LARP thing seems like a normal case of intercultural fascination, rather than mockery. In Nordic countries there's a whole subculture who take their visual cues from American rednecks, and they certainly don't do it as a mockery.
I've seen a fair amount of cases where Euros are obviously engaging in what within European contexts would be harmless joshing or cultural exploration, so to say, with American cultures, and Americans then get genuinely angry and start ranting about why the smug elitist Europoors (who are a lot poorer than Americans, yes, if one actually participates in American online forums it would seem impossible to not learn this fact) hate Americans despite being a lot poorer than them.
I think the scale of the gap is still missed on many, and if you do bring it up people just assume ruinous healthcare and tuition costs level the playing field.
deleted
What, are they still using plaster and lathe? It's admittedly thicker but it takes much more labor to put up. Drywall is perfectly fine.
More options
Context Copy link
I'm weirded out by drywall. I always thought people were fucking up their fists by punching a hole in the wall, and then I learned it's practically paper-mache compared to good solid brick and cement.
No wonder you people make regular noise complaints, there could be an orgy with loudspeakers going on next door and I wouldn't notice as long as we both had windows shut.
Well I don't need to break out the hammer drill to put a picture up on my wall. Also the noise issue can be solved by having a house instead of an apartment.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link