This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Do you believe false things?
You, high IQ, well educated, traveled and read motte denizen, you personally?
Not ordinary mistaken trivia knowledge, for example when you are unsure whether US has 50 or 51 states, or on what continent is New Guinea, but when facts about the world that serve as bedrock of your beliefs that happen to be totally delusionary, at catastrophical odds to reality. Can it happen to you?
It happens frequently. See the famous poll where about one in 20 of "very liberal people" believe that tens of thousands of unarmed blacks are annually killed by police.
For non-US example, see this poll among Palestinians, where one third of population of Gaza believe that Israel has less than 500k inhabitants.
"No, it cannot happen to me! I was trained in martial arts of rationalism by ancient master Yud the Yumongous! I am unstoppable!"
Well, it can happen not only to "brainwashed libtards" or "dumb Ayrabs".
It happened to credentialed rationalist and one of Yud's disciples.
The short xeet that went viral:
Until I was 38 I thought Men's World Cup team vs Women's World Cup team would be a fair match and couldn't figure out why they didn't just play each other
And the long essay where Eneasz Brodski at request of his readers and haters explains how it happened:
How To Believe False Things - by request, this is an explanation of how I got 38 years old believing a match of World Cup men's team vs World Cup women's would be fair.
TL;DR: EB learned about relative strength of men and women as we all learn all things we know. From his own experience, from media, from experts. EB trusted them all, without considering that his experiences could be extremely unrepresentative, media could be completely fictional and experts could just plain lie to his face.
All this person is describing is remaining forever a child. It's actually kind of amazing. He blames that on being neurodivergent? I can't really assess whether that's a valid defense of his willful ignorance or not.
Even in his own post, he repeatedly points out all the places he recoiled from any exposure to base reality.
I mean, on the one hand, I can't recall the last time I actually watched the Olympics either. On the other hand, you are rarely comparing similar numbers here either. If it's some track event, all the men's times will be clustered, and then all the women's times will be clustered say, 30% slower. You aren't comparing decimal places here. Even casual observers should notice.
I mean, did his school never do the Presidential fitness tests? He never noticed how different the standards were for even barely pubescent boys and girls?
Nothing about this entrenched ignorance seems accidental. Some seed was planted that caused him to recoil from any confounding evidence. And it's like after he got through childhood carefully selecting the reality he was exposed to so as to not challenge his pre existing views that were passed onto him, he just never gave it another thought ever again. Nor spent any time being physical with women, as even relatively sedentary man strength is often greater than female gym bunny strength.
I think his account is perfectly reasonable. I personally was not aware of the huge strength differences between men and women until around age 25, when I stumbled across this transcript of a Senate hearing on the topic of adding women to combat units in the US armed forces. I watched exactly zero sports on television.
I don't think my high school did.
I mean... I hate to out you but...
So like, age 25, you found out about physical strength differences between men and women from a senate transcript before you got any hands on experience?
I'll be out with it. It's really difficult for me to square total ignorance of the sex differences between men and women with first hand carnal knowledge of the opposite sex. So when I hear "I honestly had no idea and zero exposure to any physical reality that could possibly contradict that men and women are equally as physically capable" I just think "So.... you're a virgin?"
Although I suppose the bottom quintile and the top quintile could shack up from time to time. Just odd to think of that being someone's sole experience from which they extrapolate out to the entire human population. I mean, everyone has a type I suppose, but then again, if it's your type, you'd have to be aware of that fact, right? Which means there are lots of people out there outside your "type"?
Yes, at age 31 I have fucked exactly zero hawt gurls. Unfortunately, the rumors of magical wizard powers are greatly exaggerated. (I may spend five kilodollars on a trip to the brothels of Australia after I retire two years from now, but I probably will not be able to justify that expense.)
Surely there must be a cheaper way for you to pay to get laid, wherever you are? If you're traveling to Australia at significant expense, there's likely a whole bunch of cheap Asian countries along the way.
Flying to the brothels of Nevada would cost me next to nothing. But it's my understanding that the extremely low supply of (legal) prostitutes in Nevada results in high prices and low quality. If this is the only sex I will ever have, why not go to a proper free market in order to buy it at low prices and high quality, rather than rewarding the Nevada government for its stupid policies?
Wikipedia indicates that, other than the US, Australia is the only English-speaking country where brothels are legal. (In Britain, prostitution is legal, but brothels and advertising prostitution are not.)
Why the only time? First you can always go back. Second, maybe getting laid will inspire you to get laid without paying for it
Sounds expensive either way.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Hiring prostitutes is a fun thought, but thinking about the price at all dispels the notion. The cheapest escorts on the forward thinking hippie sex work site are like, $500. Imagine... you could buy a Glock 19 for that and it wouldn't be gone in an hour of passion. You could buy a bike. You could upgrade a bunch of your old computer parts. You could fix your air conditioner during a heat wave in June. You could put it in an investment fund. I'll be the first to say it: for $500, investment funds are better than sex.
Back when I was an adult virgin, I would have easily paid 500$, or up to four times that, if it could permanently dispel the feeling of shame I would sometimes feel being virgin. The point would not have been to enjoy myself, but to break a psychological barrier that I saw as a blocker for all my attempts at dating. The reason I didn't is not because of the opportunity cost, but because I didn't believe it would dispel that feeling, and perhaps pile on a whole new shame on to it.
More options
Context Copy link
Australian brothels advertise prices around 200 Australian dollars (130 US dollars) for 45 minutes of time. The majority of the cost would be the plane tickets, which I agree probably are not worth it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'd rather advice a trip to Southeast Asia, in that case. If you want to retire anyway, it's a great place to stay for indefinite time as well.
They don't speak much English in Southeast Asia.
Trust me that's the very last of you worries. Two of my best school friends, then college age, went backpacking there for several months with very mediocre english and no knowledge of any local language.
One of them, a very shy but super nice, hardworking and competent guy who never had to my knowledge even kissed a girl - zero game as the kids say -, came back with a girlfriend. And not a bad one, some kind of banking business work, very easygoing, down-to-earth and admittedly quite attractive. They're now living together for a few years.
Of course sex tourism is also an option there, but imo getting a serious gf is a much more sensible option and very realistic for a well-earning westerner now matter how much you struggle with western women.
Also living expenses are quite low, so even apart from any dating a great place for young retirees to stay or travel indefinitely.
That doesn't sound very enjoyable to me.
I am not seeking a romantic partner. After around a half-dozen attempted friendships in college, I concluded that friendship was not worth the effort—and romance is just deeper friendship, so it would be even worse.
My calculations indicate that I will have enough money to retire in the US two years from now, so I have no need to move to the jungle.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
My 5 star hotel that I was staying at with my family (!) overlooked the red light district in that part of Thailand. Trust me, not speaking the local language was the last thing dissuading the gents who came by, and they seemed to be having a great time.
It appears that brothels are illegal in Thailand (1 2). Randomly walking the streets of a country where I don't speak the language in order to look for women of widely-varying hotness at opaque prices (and, if this is the only sex that I will ever have, why not go for the hottest ones?) does not sound very enjoyable, in comparison to being able to pick from a lineup of brothel-curated employees at transparent prices that are posted on an English-language website.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Bangkok is kinda known for this sort of thing, so I imagine their are plenty of polyglots in the industry. Also nominative determinism, but I'm sure that's been done to death.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link