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Culture War Roundup for the week of November 21, 2022

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(I'm obviously speaking from an European perspective. American perspective may have differences)

There are no "open borders for military-aged third-world men", and apart from some groups of committed anarchists and other subject-oriented activists, it's not a real thing that is advocated. There are refugee and asylum programs, sure and these enjoy support from the Left, but these are not "open borders", any more than, say, any nightclub that lets in some people but also applies selectiveness as to who it lets in and for how long has "open doors". It should be noted that by far the largest and the most popular entry of refugees to Europe in recent years has not been military-aged third-world men - it has been Ukrainian women, of all ages, and children. Insofar as I've observed, the same peolple advocating for refugee/asylum policies have advocated for that entry just as eagerly.

Furthermore, in my experience, for an average left-winger (again, in Europe), this is really not a major issue. Right-wingers get far more fervent than immigration and borders than left-wingers at any time, and also seem to assume that the opposite side must by its nature share that same fervor, expect in opposite direction. This has frequently caused some consternation and bafflement amongst the left, especially when right-wingers bring the immigration issue to random other topics and then accuse the left of wishing to dodge the issue when the left wants to continue discussing the topic itself, not the immigration sidetrack.

What's the reason for supporting refugee and asylum programs? Again, in my experience, it's a belief that they're an essential part of the framework of human rights treaties that underpins democracy and the entire international system and would cause considerable danger of backsliding on these fronts if it comes down. The concept of "human rights" is etched in the minds of the modern Left very firmly indeed, and once something's written in a treaty, well, it's a part of the system now and must be defended among the other parts. However, as said, in this view it's just one issue among many others, not (generally) the central part of this worldview.

There are refugee and asylum programs, sure and these enjoy support from the Left, but these are not "open borders",

What do you call policies that:

-let them in (let the human smuggler boats land),

-let them move around (do not take them into detention until their claim asylum is processed), and once that fails

-do not enforce evictions ? There's 700k people in France with a 'please leave France' order. No doubt a similar number in Germany, too.

These are open-border policies, de facto.

There are no "open borders for military-aged third-world men"

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-year-ending-march-2022/how-many-people-are-detained-or-returned

25,282 people entered immigration detention in the year ending March 2022, almost double the previous year

In 2021, enforced returns from the UK decreased to 2,761, 18% fewer than the previous year and 62% fewer than in 2019.

So if you illegally cross the border, there is a 90% chance that you get to stay. Even if you are removed, nothing stops you just... trying again. What can that possibly be but de facto open borders?

What can that possibly be but de facto open borders?

If the UK were to implement an official policy of open borders (i.e. no legal restraints on the freedom of non-citizens to live and work within the borders of the UK), do you think the immigration would rise, fall, or remain the same compared to the current "de facto open borders"?

It would assumedly rise, as some number of people will be law-abiding even when it's widely known that breaking said law is never punished (and in fact rewarded with 4-star hotel stays at the taxpayer's expense.) In the same way that smoking weed is, in many ways, de facto legal, in that the police don't generally bother to arrest people for possession of it. But still a lot of people won't partake just because of the fact that it's illegal.

But the fact remains that there is no serious effort made to remove illegals from our borders. If you can come here illegally and most likely never be removed, what else can I possibly call it?

Salutary neglect? The outcome of the tension between competing priorities? The point remains that calling the status quo 'open borders' is Frankfurtian bullshit, a rhetorical flourish meant to provoke an emotional response, not an accurate description.

In the same way that smoking weed is, in many ways, de facto legal, in that the police don't generally bother to arrest people for possession of it. But still a lot of people won't partake just because of the fact that it's illegal.

I find this analogy apposite, in that formal legalization of marijuana has led to a dramatic uptick in usage. It wasn't just that people were deterred by the illegality (though that was certainly a part of it); marijuana became significantly more accessible. Similarly, an actual open borders policy would lead to far more immigration than what you see under a regime of half-assed immigration enforcement. Being an illegal immigrant puts you in a precarious position - not only are you effectively barred from all but the lowest rungs of the employment ladder, you are perpetually concerned with the threat of deportation. It's not particularly likely, but it is non-trivial (again, the marijuana analogy is somewhat apt). Legal immigration is a lot more secure and appealing. Making access to that status unqualified would draw far more people.

How many NGOs operating boats from Africa have been shut down, leaders arrested, assets seized?

The Greeks have arrested a few people but I'm not sure how that turned out. Don't think any other countries have.

I'm not sure how you guys do your statistics, but it seems to me that "the number of people who enter the UK illegally" is not necessarily the same as "the number of people who are detained for entering the UK illegally." Presumably some number are not detected.

Also true, but I can only use the numbers we have. You don't know what you don't know, after all.

open borders for military-aged third-world men

Seems to me that the powers that be and their supporters (news, NGOs, etc) are pursuing a policy of "as many immigrants as possible". When do they ever work to decrease numbers coming in?

What's the reason for supporting refugee and asylum programs? Again, in my experience, it's a belief that they're an essential part of the framework of human rights treaties that underpins democracy and the entire international system

This type of immigration has never happened in human history absent conquest or slavery, so it's weird that it's now essential. However, I would like to bring this to your attention. It's kept from the public as well as possible, but immigrants are a huge drain on Euro countries. Politicians know this. Why do they keep adding more?

Seems to me that the powers that be and their supporters (news, NGOs, etc) are pursuing a policy of "as many immigrants as possible". When do they ever work to decrease numbers coming in?

Again, context being Europe... constantly? Continuously? In a great variety of ways? At the very least since 2015, the constant trend in European (at least continental) migration policy has been how to prevent the events of 2014-2015 happening again in the same way, and thus we got the 2016 EU-Turkey deal, 2020 Greek border crisis solved by EU-supported border closure and 2021 Lithuania/Poland border crisis solved the same way. If the powers that be were pursuing a policy of "as many immigrants as possible", they obviously wouldn't have done that.

This type of immigration has never happened in human history absent conquest or slavery

United States has certainly taken in a lot of people fleeing religious or national oppression, even if it hasn't happened under formal refugee/asylum status, no?

However, I would like to bring this to your attention. It's kept from the public as well as possible, but immigrants are a huge drain on Euro countries.

It's not being kept from the public very well, I'm pretty sure anyone who has spent even a bit of time on immigration issues (which admittedly isn't even everyone politically oriented - as I said, not everyone simply considers immigration that big an issue) is aware of the costs of immigration, a drum the European nationalist parties keep banging on constantly. However, if your point for the maintenance of refugee/asylum system is the one I mentioned, ie the maintenance of the international human rights treaty framework, it follows that the costs alone are generally not a sufficient reason to stop doing so.

If the powers that be were pursuing a policy of "as many immigrants as possible", they obviously wouldn't have done that.

That's not true. They'd do it if they had no other choice, and had to wait for a better opportunity.

What they want to do is clear from messaging sent to the public, which is still: immigration good, and skepticism of it is racist.

That's not true. They'd do it if they had no other choice, and had to wait for a better opportunity.

So how is this supposed to be falsifiable then?

What they want to do is clear from messaging sent to the public, which is still: immigration good, and skepticism of it is racist.

Literally the messaging sent to the public by EU is this:

Migration is a complex issue. The safety of people who seek international protection or a better life has to be taken into account, as do the concerns of countries who worry that migratory pressures will exceed their capacities.

To address the interdependence between Member States’ policies and decisions, the European Commission proposes a new EU framework that manages and normalises migration for the long term. This new system should provide certainty, clarity and decent conditions for the women, children and men arriving in the EU. It also allows Europeans to trust that migration is managed in an effective and humane way, fully in line with our values and with international laws.

Migration is context, you have to balance a bunch of stuff, the top message is that immigration must be managed - which by necessity means that the borders won't be open, which was the question being discussed.

So how is this supposed to be falsifiable then?

Like I said, public messaging. What you quoted actually goes some way towards it, but what's missing for me is public awareness.

top message is that immigration must be managed

I'd say the top message is what actually reaches the public. I don't think, it's more than single-digits of voters who know the refugee crisis ended because they're paying Turkey to enforce their borders, or that there is a border wall in Poland and Lithuania. Then you also have the NGOs (which were specifically mentioned in this conversation), and last I heard from them about that, was that Polish border wall is racist.

Okay, now you’re just throwing shit at the wall. “Seems to me”? Give some actual numbers.

Tell me, in which years did the US send the most migrants back?