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I'm Orthodox, because of their Liturgy. Husband, who grew up Catholic, is heading more my direction. But the children are unbaptized, because we are not good at making it through the (profound! beautiful! sublime! long!) Liturgy. Unfortunately.
Go get those kids baptized! Use it as an excuse to throw a huge party.
I keep seeing photos of Pope Leo and the patriarch of Constantinople together. I really pray that there is something unifying coming soon. Lots of the EO stuff is beautiful, and in my mind these are the same church, just different forms of the mass. EO occupies a similar space in my mind to the TLM.
Yes. But we have to make it to church enough first. Which is a struggle.
Does orthodoxy really have such a strong norm towards ‘children must be PERFECT in liturgy or not go’? I ask because Byzantine Catholicism has, uh, thé opposite reputation.
You’ve posted before about the challenge of wrangling little people through Divine Liturgy(and I can sympathize), but Byzantine Catholic services are IME full of children being basically ignored until they start full on screaming. Maybe it’s a difference from thé ‘if you’re married you have to have babies and not stop’ mentality religious Catholics tend to have and orthodoxy is different- but it would surprise me.
No, the children can play nicely while whispering, nap, color, flop about a bit on the rug, or walk in and out as they're able to behave quietly or not. One priest said that he'd rather they were there and screaming than not there, but nobody behaves like they believe him, including his own wife and children.
Mostly, though, if we can't receive Communion, can't hear or concentrate on the prayers, can't sing, can't hear the sermon because we spend it either suppressing child activity or in a different room, then where are we even doing?
Edit: We'd probably do better if we had a specific goal, and should probably go talk to a priest about it. I know.
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I strongly believe the “gung ho liturgy go hard fasting is hard everyone must follow rules originally followed by monks” energy of Orthodoxy, which attracts the competitive male converts to it, is also the greatest problem for the Orthodox Church. The “standard” practice is incredibly high — and in service of an incredibly high goal, total union with God. Literally to “have everything that God has.”
I often feel like the Orthodox Church sets up people to fail. All the models of faith that the Orthodox Church offers in modern times are very hard to approach, and many are claimed to literally work miracles. The impression I get is that the goal for the laity is to be a monk. Even the supposed basics involve going vegan for half the year.
And yes, I know the objection: ask your priest! The rules can be changed! Economia!
Gee, thanks. I always wanted to be a charity case, a special exception, because I don’t want to be moaning on the floor of the parish hall on Easter Sunday because I was finally able to eat a cheeseburger. This also understandably raises questions of moral inconsistency and clerical power.
My earlier post about the Orthodox Church, the AAQC one — I guess what I was trying to get across in that rambling diversion was that it’s really hard for me, and people I love, to imagine actually living an Orthodox lifestyle.
Every ex-orthodox rant post I’ve ever read boils down to that — the demands of the Orthodox faith are incredibly high. Perhaps that’s what God asks of people. But perhaps not.
I believe the Western approach, of mandating a low minimum and permitting more intense asceticism as spiritual directors and the Spirit himself guides, is a more human and fruitful approach. It sets up people to succeed, not to fail. And it remains open to sanctity in lay life, in a way I think E. Orthodoxy struggles to do.
Just some disorganized thoughts. But my general posture towards Orthodoxy is this — they can have all the theological points they want, but I have to find the way where I can actually follow Christ. And I’m not convinced the Eastern Orthodox Church is that place.
It's not about being a charity case. It's a pastoral approach that is completely in keeping with Christology in general (God became Man, a particular Man, so that we could be come god) and the EO emphasis on the Persons of the Trinity (and Their particularity) compared to the emphasis on the Unity of the Trinity in the West. You might want to argue against this theology, but it's completely internally consistent. Seeing the Particular as a manifestation of the Ultimate and Universal is the name of the game, and clergy applying this to the personal needs and stations of their flock is the rule, not the "special exception." If that looks like morally inconsistent from the point of view of western theology, all I can say is that maybe western theology is wrong and in any case, Christians are not worshippers of Immanuel Kant.
What you described here is exactly the way my parish is run. It's an Orthodox Church in America parish in a major US city on the East Coast, if that matters.
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Honestly, if we could invent a time machine I'd go back and kick the stuffing out of the Second Vatican Council. Yes, there were stodgy abuses that needed correcting. Yes, people had no idea what was going on at Mass and just prayed the rosary. Yes, yes, yes. Reform was needed, a refreshing of catechesis so people understood and didn't just learn off by rote and then forget. Urging people to a living faith and piety. All that was indeed true.
But we threw not alone the baby out with the bathwater, but the bath, the fittings, the plumbing, and demolished the bathroom along with it. The brave pioneers decided that emulating Protestantism was where it was at, and whatever architects persuaded bishops that "what the modern congregation wants is a church that looks like a warehouse", yeah they're number two on the list for the kicking.
We had mysticism. We had folk piety. We scrapped it all in the name of relevance or some damn thing, and this is what we ended up with.
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For me, the appeal of Orthodoxy was two fold. First, it takes itself seriously. The priests for the most part believe in God. Faith is contagious, and I have a hard time believing in something that the adherents don’t even believe themselves. My first experience in Orthodoxy was a candle lit, pre-dawn liturgy at a monastery, and the hieromonk said every prayer of the liturgy as if it mattered.
The second appeal was its personal ethos, as opposed to the more institutional ethos of the Catholics. I did my catechumenate in Berkeley and I would stay after church and talk with people for hours. The priest would often take me out for coffee after coffee hour. He’s not the most impressive priest, a little socially awkward, and one of our few celibate clergy. But he gave me plenty of time and attention.
In my years of spiritual wandering, I most frequently visited Catholic Churches but I never made a friend, or even had a conversation that I can recall
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This REALLY depends on your parish my friend. I've read a lot of the Orthodox Church Fathers and yeah, the asceticism can be pretty harsh.
That being said, my own parish is very chill and the priest has basically told me that if it isn't good for my soul, don't worry about it. Hell, he even told me that my girlfriend and I living together was ok as long as it was good for the relationship, since we were dating before I converted.
Overall my experience has absolutely NOT been of a super militant, super strict fasting, hardcore church. I would strongly urge you to check out different parishes, or hang out with different groups.
Also, online Orthodoxy is horrible and I wouldn't go near it tbh. I have found very few public, online Orthodox folks that I think are actually humble. And humility is the chief virtue, without her we have nothing.
Your parish and your priest sound a lot like mine. Mind sharing a bit more about it? DM me if you don't want to post personal stuff publicly.
Sure, DMed.
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I think what holds back Orthodoxy spreading in the West is the ethnic churches. You have the church for the Greeks, the church for the Bulgarians, the church for the Russians, and so on. It's bound up with particular cultures as much as faith and that makes it harder for a Western guy to walk in and understand what's going on.
Catholicism, while it does devolve into "all the Irish live in this parish and this is their church, that parish over there is the Italians, and the black Catholics are way over there doing their own thing" is much more universal. The Mass is the Mass is the Mass, while it might now be in the vernacular there's nothing stopping you from going to a Spanish parish if that's your first experience and seeing that what goes on is the same as the Vietnamese church is the same as the Irish or the Germans or the Italians.
I do get a kick out of the Diocese of Orange, which bought the former Crystal Cathedral, being majority Vietnamese now because that's the natural progression of the changes in immigrants coming along; it's still the Universal Church even if it shifts from white Europeans to Hispanic to East Asian. I don't think a comparable Orthodox diocese could transition like that.
There is the Orthodox Church of America, which is becoming more and more prominent and is specifically focused on erasing these boundaries.
That being said, I actually love the Greek. Not sure I would've converted without how beautiful the Greek language is, Greek culture, etc. While it can be offputting at first, eventually you come to realize that it's beautiful that this culture has actually survived the acid bath of American globohomo. Personally I think it's one of the big divisive issues I see though, and I hear about it a lot from other converts. Heck, I used to complain about this myself!
Well, the problem with that is that the Mass in Latin destroys all the local culture. Big issue with Catholicism from my perspective, especially if you look at the historic violence and awfulness that the Church perpetrated. The Orthodox aren't perfect of course, but wow the Catholic church has done some bad stuff.
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Is this based on your own experience? Because I received a warm and personal welcome in Orthodoxy, despite the presence of ethnic diasporas.
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Personally, it's less about theological points than about Beauty. Catholics built plenty of beautiful churches in the past, but the Orthodox are still building them, even though there are a lot fewer members, and so it might only be one per city. That one will generally be beautiful. They will cover it in mosaics and iconography, swing huge chandeliers on feast days, embed eagles into the tiles, have a beautiful dome with Christ looking down. Many of the churches in America are new and aren't fully finished yet, but are as beautiful as the parish is able to make them. The chanting is as beautiful as the choir members are able to make it, depending on local skill levels. They do generally work pretty hard at it, and still care about the beauty in a way that Catholics used to, but often don't anymore, even when they've inherited grand and storied cathedrals. They're one of very, very few groups that are still making everything as beautiful as they're able to in Current Year, which is almost as important as theology. Of course Dostoyevsky, coming from an Orthodox tradition, would say "beauty will save the world."
I grew up Evangelical, and joined the Orthodox Church in college, when there was a Greek mission inhabiting a lovely old Catholic Church within walking distance of my dorm. I like standing silently, and liked learning to cook tofu and lentils from my charming Greek Godmother, and it was all very lovely. It continued to be lovely when I moved for a Great Books program, and found a church within walking distance, with a wonderful, experienced priest who I could listen to for hours, and did. I went to Matins, Vespers, Paraklesis, book clubs, and anything else that was happening there. And then I was in the Republic of Georgia, which has wonderful old churches and a lot of energy from rebuilding after communism, and also a very beautiful chant tradition.
The small children in Georgia came and went, I think, though I didn't watch them closely. They looked like they spent a lot of time playing in the courtyard (and there were courtyards for them to play in). I think that Orthodoxy does have room for families that walk up the hill to the church who's names day it is to light a candle and have a party. They would spread feasts (Supras) during fasting periods, and some of the people wouldn't eat some of the things, especially the women, but it wasn't that big a deal, they would still cook roast chicken for whoever wanted it. But Americans aren't like that, and ultimately my husband and I are American, and feel miserable coming and going from the church service to the children's room and back as necessary.
So every once in a while I post here about how I don't know what to do. The plan has been Just Do It for about five years now, and maybe one of these years it will take. My husband is more willing to go to an Orthodox Church with me than any other kind of church, was enthusiastic about naming the children after saints, having icons in the house, and playing Russian chants on the speakers. He's not at all enthusiastic about standing still and getting small children to be still for three hours, and would probably be happy as an alter server (or any role, really, other than getting the children to be still) if only we could Just Do It long enough to get there.
That is tough, and I think nowadays whatever denomination, people are more prickly about kids being kids. In my day, crying babies were normal (and unless they kept howling and wouldn't stop crying, there was no taking them out) as well as small kids climbing around the pews because they were bored. You just kept them from running amok - though there was always going to be one kid who escaped corralling and made it up onto the altar 😁
How else are they going to learn, if they're shut away in a separate room while services are going on? Mind you, three hours is a lot longer than Catholicism's "an hour tops and if you get a fast priest it's only half an hour". Is there the Orthodox equivalent of "eh, as long as you make it in the door before the Gospel, you're fine"?
A lot of large Orthodox parishes will have children's Liturgies, where the assistant priest will do a liturgy specifically for children and maybe parents/caregivers, in which he explains more of what's going on and helps the kids get more into the service. I think it's a wonderful idea though I've never seen one.
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We have a little one, and thankfully the Godparents and other people around church have been willing to watch him for a bit. It helps give us a break.
Getting the kids baptized is a chance to form an alliance with an older couple or another family at church. It may make things easier
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Huh, most folks in my church will just have their kids in the Liturgy with them, and if the kid is screaming no big deal. Our bishop came in one time and literally admonished people if they thought to judge the children who were crying during a service, strongly saying that kids are closer to God than we are.
It's interesting, Orthodoxy is so different based on where you go and who you talk to. From @urquan's post above sounds like he and you have both had some more ascetic/intense parishes. I'm grateful to have not found that! Hah. But we do still have the grace and beauty, and I am incredibly lucky in that way.
In terms of feasting, and kids going in and out of the liturgy running around, that does sound lovely. I do wish it was even more relaxed here in America, maybe one day.
It's more that it stresses my husband out than that other people are actually judging us. He's very much a walk up a hill, light a candle, walk around it three times kind of churchgoer, as were many of the men in Georgia. He's spent some time in Muslim areas, and liked the part where he would get up on the middle of the night to eat dates for Ramadan, or go to a cow slaughtering or something.
Ahh I see, interesting. Well idk don't want to tell you how to do your marriage lol. I suppose he can talk to his priest!
It's interesting though because usually the severity appeals more to men hehe. I get it though. My own partner and I are very much non traditional in many ways as well.
Perhaps if he looked into the symbolism and understood more of the details of the Liturgy that could help? That is what helped me get a lot more into it. Also I joined choir and that has been amazing.
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