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Recently, I have been reminded why so many lawyers are fat, drunks, or both. There are just too many days where the stress levels are atrocious, and as if dealing with clients/courts/etc. aren't bad enough, then adding in training and supervising other attorneys means there are constant small fires that need attention.
Nearly ripped my hair out today so hey you're not alone. The feeling of having constant small fires that need attention is definitely something that also exists in tax, and to add to that tax software is an absolute bitch to deal with (seriously they all look like they're from the 80s and function that way). Trainings. Deadlines. Impromptu dealings with the Australian Taxation Office, an institution which is infamously unreasonable and practically all-powerful. Timesheets where your productivity is tracked by the 15-minute increment and incentivises you to rush out jobs, making you more error-prone. Engagement letters. Clients who refuse to provide PBCs that are remotely legible and instead choose to vomit out 350 documents that barely reconcile. Byzantine tax laws that just keep fucking changing, something I'm sure you're more than familiar with.
My current work arrangement enables me to to work from home at select days during the week and I will admit to taking this opportunity to talk shit with friends sometimes while I work, which helps to make the day less desolate (whenever the job allows it, that is). That's a boon. But the job itself makes me want to chop my fingers off.
I would probably hate being a lawyer though. Too much human interaction for the likes of an autist such as me.
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What's specifically stressful about it? Aren't you just, like, talking to people and billing hours?
I could imagine being forced to care about people you don't care about can wear on you. But make you an alcoholic? Isn't the point of training and experience so you can autopilot most of the time?
Are you talking about being a corporate attorney?
If by "talking to people" you mean dealing with unreasonable felonious clients, their unreasonable families, obnoxious and occasionally unethical prosecutors, unhelpful court staff, belligerent judges, probation officers, police officers, and a bunch of others, then yes. And of course, most of the court staff, probation officers, police officers, clients, and their families all believe they're lawyers and know more about the law than I do.
None of that includes the administrative side of things.
lol. lmao, even.
No, criminal defense.
Okay so, talking to the worst people in the world all day? Yeah I could see that driving me to drink. I'd probably have to just start treating people like holograms to protect my sanity after awhile
What did you think criminal defense would be like?
Sunshine, rainbows, drinking champagne on unicorns, perfect 10s throwing themselves at me, etc. You know, the usual.
ha, honest mistake
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Now that makes me wonder why more doctors aren't fat and/or drunk. Everything you've said about attorneys fits our bill. Maybe we're more health conscious (and I hope we are), maybe we run around more, or maybe we just sleep better at night from a clean conscience.
The median quality of the people becoming doctors compared to lawyers is generally a fair bit higher, so one would expect them to do better. The comparison shouldn't be between the median lawyer and the median doctor, but between a fairly successful lawyer or judge and a doctor.
I have another observation though, and this of course varies by country and specialization, but my impression is that doctors work life is comparatively (in relation to other similar high status white collar professions) "relaxed" a few years after residency, which coincidentally is the same age people usually start gaining weight. If I'm comparing my friends and acquaintances, the ones in private industry seem to work more, harder and with far less stability than the doctors.
A lot of the stressors that exist in other comparable careers don't exist and things are far more stable, for good and ill. Very high salary, ironclad employment security, lifelong employment, clear delineation between work and rest, etc. To me the biggest issue among my doctor friends seems to increasingly be boredom/under stimulation rather than stress.
I also imagine that a lot of the people unsuited to the medicine specific stressors wash out before they actually become doctors due to how the education is structured. You're much more removed from the actual reality of your future career as a law student for example which can lead to nasty surprises.
While this can be true for some practice environments and specialties, I would hazard it is untrue more often than not.
Most doctors have some combination of research, teaching, administrative, and managerial duties all of which bleed outside of traditional work hours in the usual ways. Additionally many specialties (ex: family medicine) will involve significant time outside of work catching up on documentation and managing your in basket and so on.
It's not impossible - gas usually does little outside of work, same for things like radiology, inpatient psychiatry and so on. Especially in a hospital employed community setting. But as soon as you take on any additional responsibilities, go academic, or hang your own shingle...that goes away most of the time.
My suspicion is that doctors seem to cope well in comparison to lawyers because the sheer depth of abuse, abstruse requirements and zero flexibility in the medical student and residency days makes anything that comes after seem reasonable.*
Although by the numbers substance abuse, divorce rates, suicide are all high for doctors (but maybe not as bad as lawyers).
*"My 24s aren't that bad" is a common attending refrain. It is also insane.
I have a few doctor friends, most in family med, 1 in ophthalmology, 1 in podiatry (debatable) , and my wife's family are mostly doctors, including radiology, physiatry, and neurology.
Ive never heard of any of them doing any "research, teaching, administrative, or managerial work" past residency. They all seem to work 30-40h a week doing pretty much "doctor stuff" only.
Nobody does any teaching? Nobody has any Medical Students or Residents?
That doesn't seem right.
Could be regional though - Philadelphia (which is super dense) has nearly as many medical schools as the entire state of Florida, if you live in a place without trainees you aren't going to be teaching.
That said if you work for a hospital you should be doing something outside of your clinical duties (teaching, research, committee seats, extra jobs in the department like holding a medical director title). If you own your own practice you need to deal with the management side of this.
It'd be possible to work for someone to take on the least amount of responsibility (and the specialties you name are some of the ones it would be easier to do*) but you'd be leaving money on the table, not necessarily working any less (since teaching, research and administrative can eat up some FTE) and it is by no means typical.
*Family medicine in most practice environments is checking their in basket and finishing charts outside of business hours at least somewhat.
All of this is stay nothing of call responsibilities - someone is managing a phone line, going into the hospital PRN if needed, for most specialties. Ophthalmology is small and has rare but serious call responsibilities (going into the hospital) and has frequent enough need to phone triage. I'd be shocked if that person doesn't have some call. Radiology and Physiatry can dodge that. Neurology can be one of the busiest call specialties depending on practice environment, same with Family Medicine.
I would wager your friends do more than you think they just don't mention it or it doesn't come up.
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Maybe things are different in America (you certainly seem to abuse your residents far more), I only really know and have experience with doctors from the Nordics and Germany.
Most doctors here absolutely do not have research, teaching and administrative duties that take place outside of work hours. Some do, like those pursuing MDs, but those a fairly small minority. Most attendings are "just" working and for most of them this work overwhelmingly takes place during office hours, including things like teaching.
The specific stressors they face are different, like the very long shifts, working nights and ethical stress.
Yeah the environment couldn't be more different - stress is going to be the same (not even long hours depending on the country) but the way US physicians have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, can be compensated very well (depending on speciality), have to deal with the nonsense of the U.S. health system, wearing of multiple hats and so make them functionally a different class of job.
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First result for searching for divorce rates for doctors and lawyers. Not too far apart. I did not find any quick results for suicide comparisons or substance abuse rates.
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I'd suggest that divorce (and adultery) rates are high for doctors because one of the perks of the job is that hospitals are full of young female nurses. Of all the divorced men I know, the doctors are the most likely to leave their first wife for some kind of floozy from work. This alone probably encourages staying trim!
Both of my neighbors are doctors and both are on their 2nd marriages with younger women they met at work. The surgeon had a huge new sprawling estate built to house not only his current wife and 4 young children, but also his 3 adult children from his first marriage who refuse to move out. His house actually has separate living rooms, kitchen, garages etc for both 'halves' of his family.
edit - neither are nurses. While it is common for doctors to "trade up" to younger women, the doctors and nurses I've spoken with (my wife, sister in law, and nephew are all nurses), say doctor/nurse affairs seldom lead to long term relationships as they all kind of hate doctors generally, as a class of people, and nurses personalities are often not pliant enough for the doctor's liking. Instead both of my neighbors married admin staff of some sort, one was an insurance liaison at the hospital, the other worked in patient intake.
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I know this is a meme but it is one I've never encountered in real life (although I've heard about it often). Hard to tell if that is due to geography or era (these days most of the male doctors I know are terrified of being on the wrong end of woke crimes and are careful at work for that reason).
I will tell you that this is definitely true for pilots, however, in full agreement with the popular perception. Of course the barriers or demonstrably lower (spending time in hotel rooms already, far from home) on top of the similarities (long work hours, mix of boredom and stress, an abundance of young female lower-ranked coworkers).
Yeah I've heard Pilots and Flight Attendants are basically fuck city. In truth I've never heard an IRL doctor make any kinds of claims about rampant sleeping around or cheating in the departments. I've heard patients who work in aviation tell me about their and their coworkers exploits totally unprompted.
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Pilots and doctors are very different crowds.
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Some societal stereotypes seem to be based on things that haven't been true for 10-20 years, and the updates are slow to happen. The "middle aged dude running off with the floozy from work and buying a red convertible" trope is indestructible, but I've personally seen more of the "woman loses her mind and gets divorced (or the opposite order), borderline abandons her kids, and goes on a years-long drunken sex binge" version.
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God, I wish that were me. Or true of most British doctors. At least the WLB is better in psych.
That's a pretty thoughtful comment, and I think it makes eminent sense.
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I have zero doubts being a doctor is more stressful in some ways, especially in some specialties. However, imagine as a doctor, you had a counter-doctor working to fight or undo everything you were doing (even more so than the patient might fight you on things). It adds a whole extra level of stress.
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