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Notes -
To anyone who has discussed the issue with pro-Ukraine people.
Why do people support Ukraine fighting against Russia, with a strange militaristic fervor, instead of supporting surrendering / negotiating peace?
Anglin makes the points that:
-the war is severely impoverishing Europe due to high energy costs
-the war is destroying Ukraine ( population + territory / infrastructures / institutions)
-continuing the war increases the chances of a world war
Is it cheering for the possible destruction of Russia?
Something to do with the current leadership of Russia, anti-LGBTQ, pro-family policies?
Is it about the 1991 borders of Ukraine, issues with post-Soviet Union border disputes?
Notion that 'if we don't stop Putin now he will never stop no matter what'? Is it something about broadly standing up against aggression of one state vs another, supporting the 'underdog'?
The issue with that one which seems to be central to Alexander's March 22 post is that there isn't much that seems capable of stopping Russia.
Sending another 100k Ukrainians to the meatgrinder for that end seems a little bit harsh coming from people with very little skin in the game.
Just signaling what they are told is the correct opinion?
Is it about saving face, sunk cost at this point?
What would be the best case scenario for a Ukraine/State Department victory?
To my understanding, Putin is not the most radical or dangerous politician in Russia, and an implosion into ethnicity-based sub-regions would cause similar problems to the 'Arab Spring'. Chechens for example would not appear very West-friendly once 'liberated' from Russia.
Not only that, but economic crisis in Europe could generate additional security risks.
Because they have chosen to fight. They can surrender whenever they feel like it. But until they do, they ought to enjoy the full support of people who also don't like wars of aggression prosecuted upon them.
The traditional response to an insult is reprisal, not submission. Indeed, they've probably got very little to lose and everything to gain by continuing to fight.
If Russia is able to win all conflicts by threatening a world war, they're going to spread unchecked. The hell with that, I say. Waiting for the apocalypse is exhausting.
Yes
I cannot speak for everyone supporting Ukraine but that always seemed like a distraction. The reason I want to see Russia get spanked is the arsenal of nuclear weapons they maintain trained at me. They're the guy robbing my convenience store at gunpoint; if they go down in a hail of cop gunfire after stealing a car that's just as well.
Even more of the Russian armed forces taken out of commission. Like 2x what we've seen so far. Perhaps 5x. Russia withdrawing from Ukraine. Putin replaced with someone who's more interested in increasing Russia's GDP than square miles.
Is there a strong reason to believe that Putin is the glue holding together the federation?
The irony when the support comes in the forms of billions dollars of aid and weapons from the American militaro-industrial complex.
A reasonable border conflict, similar to the Cuban missiles crisis.
Again, there's a whole series of convenience store robberies you haven't looked at if Russia is the main perp in your eyes.
Not going to happen unless Russia is destroyed. Having a de facto NATO protectorate on your border is a matter of life or death for Russia.
Russia's GDP is square miles. Square miles of resource-rich land, that Russians have been doing quite a good job at keeping under control, compared to say the West in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Historical precedent. You know what you lose, you don't know what you gain.
How well did the Arab Spring go for liberal democracy in North Africa and the Middle East?
Are there other nuclear arsenals aimed at the US? China's is unimpressive compared to Russia's, but don't get me wrong, when (if?) China invades Taiwan I will have zero problem with the unholy gift basket of armaments my tax dollars will provide them with.
How unfortunate for them. Maybe if they didn't make NATO the only way to avoid getting invaded and instead offered a better deal they wouldn't be in this mess.
Man, it's been a while. i think the fondest hope was that Iran would flip, and it didn't.
But Gaddafi got his, so there's that.
NATO doesn't protect anyone from invasion, quite the opposite actually.
Without NATO wars in North Africa and the Middle-East, there would have been a lot fewer immigrants to Western Europe in the past decade, that many have characterized as 'invaders'.
Gaddafi got what? His fair trial according to the rule-based liberal world order?
You and all your interlocutors seem to be talking past one another. You seem to be starting from the belief that NATO/globohomo is fundamentally intent on the genocide/replacement of white people. And because of this, nothing Russia does could be worse or less desirable for Ukraine than this.
I guess to get back to answering your initial question, I imagine most people supporting Ukraine are simply not starting with your set of beliefs regarding white genocide/globohomo. The vast gulf here in terms of assumptions makes discussion pretty pointless I think
I wouldn't say necessarily so. There are definitely actors within NATO or supporting NATO that have as one of their goals the replacement of white people. Not necessarily all of them.
They are the ones financing / writing articles such as 'Of course all white people are racist'. If they insist on it, I will believe what they say. Or am I being tricked if I believe that they want to take power away from white people?
The issue is that NATO policies lead to replacement of white people (in Europe), incidentally or purposely.
For example, the various NATO 'interventions' (totally not a war of aggression!!!) inj North Africa and the Middle-East led to huge waves of (non-white) immigrants in the 2010s.
No, my assumption is that living under Russian rule would not be that bad for Ukraine, primarily because that was the default state of Ukraine for the last few centuries.
Secondly, I don't think Ukraine has a chance at independence, or self-rule.
Those who claim that the Ukrainian people truly want to be ruled by the current government, rather than the previous government that was Russian-friendly, have a strange understanding of democracy.
When a Russia-neighboring country is Russian-friendly, their government is clearly under the influence of the nefarious Russian propaganda.
Same thing with Western government.
A man like Trump must be Russian-controlled if he is interested in peaceful relations with Russia, or the Russians must be pulling some nefarious 'hacking' or 'blackmailing' tricks to 'hack' the elections.
On the other hand, if the government of Ukraine strongly opposes Russia, then it is completely out of their authentic, pure, democratic sovereignty.
Let's ignore the heavy hands of a few foreign players;
Biden
Victoria Nuland was born in 1961 to Sherwin B. Nuland, a surgeon born to Eastern European Jewish immigrants,[7] and a Christian British native mother, Rhona McKhann, née Goulston.[8]
Merrick Brian Garland His grandparents left the Pale of Settlement in the Russian Empire in the early 20th century, fleeing antisemitic pogroms and seeking a better life
Anthony Blinken His maternal grandparents were Hungarian Jews.
Would any of these people have any sort of personal interest, or say, grudge, against the Russian people?
I find it odd that you've internalized the narrative that Trump was friendly with Russia, which is largely aesthetic from his left.
Trump's policies were worse for Russia than Biden, pre war.
My understanding of Trump is that he wanted to cut some of the deep state / unaccountable intelligence - paramilitary operations / foreign interference etc out of US politics. I think that would have been a good thing for Russia.
He obviously failed at that, even if he was genuinely intending to do so.
I don't know whether he felt friendly to Russia or not, but he strikes me as somebody with respect for strongmen, despite their decidedly anti-democratic tendencies, as they are people (Putin, Assad, Netanyahu...) that have effectively kept their own countries mostly stable for decades.
Trump's opposition did make the argument that Russia was influencing him.
The Western media seems to operate under the belief that the democratic process is such a fragile thing that a country as weak as Russia operated by a 'madman' like Putin can willy-nilly 'hack' it in order to get people like Trump elected, or Russian-friendly governments.
Additionally, they claim that the whole world should operate under the same extremely fragile democratic process, and the only way to tell whether or not the extremely fragile democratic process is operating as intended is that a leader that support their policies get elected.
Obviously no one ever questions the influence of that same Western media in shaping the opinions of voters in these 'real democracies', where social media workers who support at 99% one party take orders from intelligence agencies.
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Well then, what you've portrayed as NATO aggression against Russia (ie. the Russian war on Ukraine) has now led to a huge wave of white immigrants to Western Europe in 2022, so it must have evened out a bit then, huh?
Well if one wants to blame the Ukraine war fully or mostly on Russia, which is what most commenters here seem to do, then Russia is responsible for a stream of mostly female white refugees to Western Europe and some to North America.
This demographic shift is sure to alleviate some of the I.N.C.E.L. problem that some leftist commenters have placed at the root of various ills such as mass shootings or increase in political extremism.
By that logic, blue-tribe people should thank Russia for helping reduce some of these issues.
For me, the problem is not restricted to the color of the immigrants, but also to the social and cultural disruption.
Most Western countries are already too far gone from a demographic point of view.
If some Germans, Brits or French can make a family out of a Ukrainian wife, the social tissue necessary to historically raise a German, Brit or French family is already gone.
That was not the case in Ukraine until the recent Western attacks on the traditionally Eastern-European/Russian culture of Ukraine, leading to the absurd latest bout of 'Ukrainian nationalism'.
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Let’s just say that it could be proven that Ukraine could win against Russia and that popular will of Ukrainians genuinely preferred this. Would this matter to you? Would it change your opinion? Or would the genocide/replacement issue render these concerns irrelevant? What I am driving at is attempting to find the core of the disagreement between you and most posters here, the disagreement that actually drives the difference in opinion. Given your statements regarding invasion by immigrants I doubt any of these other things are really very relevant.
If Ukraine can win against Russia without selling its soul to the Western devil, good for them.
This is not what is happening.
Ukraine is to be the servant of either other Slavs, or Zelensky's cousins who congregate in Joe Biden's administration.
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