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You are wrong Amadan, the mainstream historical claim is exactly that they were herded like sheep through an assembly line and fully cooperated the vast majority of the time. And saying it was a "small part" is also not true: it is claimed about half of the "six million" were murdered inside these shower rooms. And if you take lower estimates of the overall death-toll form mainstream historians like Hilberg, then the claim is that the overall majority of the Jews who died in WWII were killed in this way. It's not a "small part" and yes the mainstream claim is actually that they just willingly walked in like herded sheep through an assembly-line. That's not me strawmanning, that's the actual claim. The alleged cases of resistance are very few and far between compared to the multimillion death-toll alleged.
According to Yankel Wiernik, childrens' feet froze to the ground while they awaited their turn to be gassed. Although Wiernik does report on a case of heroic resistance:
At Treblinka it's claimed that the Jewish workers who ran the extermination operation revolted only after the murder operation of 800,000+ Jews because the workers "knew they would be next." At some point the lack of chivalry is just hard to believe.
What you are claiming the Germans did with their "extermination camps" is totally unprecedented in human history. That is not to say "genocide has never happened", it's to say that the establishment of secret camps with assembly-line/factory modes of extermination hundreds of thousand to 1 million+ using industrial means is not precedented in human history. The notion that this all happened without written orders, planning, or budgeting, it just somehow emerged organically from Hitler's rhetoric, doesn't hold water in comparison to the more likely explanation that the network of concentration and labor camps during WWII is perfectly consistent with German policy with respect to the Jews without the absurd stories of assembly-line death factories.
You notice I tried my best to address all your points, as tiresome as it is to tread this ground again since you'll just disappear and return with the same arguments in a couple of weeks. But as usual, you pick and choose a few points and ignore all the other holes that have been pointed out in your narrative. As I said to Arjin, my understanding is that large numbers of Jews were herded into gas chambers, but the majority of them were probably not marching in believing they were just showers. Was it 3 million who were gassed? 1 million? 100K? As someone pointed out above, in the case of the Rape of Nanking, good faith disputes about the exact numbers are possible, but good faith disputes about whether it actually happened are not.
If you proved to me that the Germans only gassed 100,000 Jews, I'd say "Wow, I wonder how historians got those numbers so wrong?" and I'd even consider "Certain groups had a vested interest in inflating them."
But you still would not have proved that the Nazis didn't gas large numbers of Jews in an attempt to exterminate them, which is what you are trying to claim.
In scale and industrialization, yes, which is why it's so memorable. In sheer cruelty and intent to exterminate a hated subpopulation, no, not really.
The camps were hardly secret, though what exactly was happening there was not widely known until after the war. See, you keep throwing out little "Hahaha how ridiculous that people believe such silly things" lines like this that are just straw men.
Again, this is ridiculous, no one is saying the camps were not planned or budgeted or there were no written orders about disposition of Jews. There may have been no written orders saying precisely "Kill all the Jews in your camp" or "Kill at least 1000 Jews per day." That doesn't mean it "emerged organically from Hitler's rhetoric."
You said that it's a straw-man to characterize the operation as them walking to their deaths like sheep through an assembly line. But that is not a straw-man. that is the actual claim made by mainstream historians with cases of resistance being the rare exception and not the rule. The alleged operation fundamentally relied on the cooperation of the victims. Whether or not they actually believed they were taking a shower is immaterial to the fact that they cooperated in the way you implied was silly to believe... and yes it is silly to believe they would do that- they wouldn't and they didn't.
The Germans did not gas any Jews. The "gas chambers disguised as shower rooms" is a total myth, it did not happen. Many Jews died of various causes throughout the war, none died in that way because there were no extermination camps, there were concentration, labor, and transit camps.
There are no plans... no budgets.... no orders.... there's nothing to establish some policy to kill all the Jews.
You might say that I am strawmanning mainstream historians when I characterize their position that the extermination camps "emerged organically from Hitler's rhetoric." But consider the words of renowned Holocaust Historian Raul Hilberg:
So there you have it- no plans, no budget, no orders; instead it was "mind-reading" by lower-level officers. This is the mainstream position which has emerged due to the inabilitiy of mainstream historians to find any documents substantiating their characterization of German policy in this respect.
This would hardly be surprising. It's essentially what is happening now with transgender care, infinity immigration, race swapping of historical figures in media, etc. This might have implications that are rather uncomfortable for modern liberals, and academic historians might laugh off the attempt to provide any such explanation in any other context, but on the simple matter of whether it actually happened that way - why not?
There are plans, budgets, orders for all of those things... But ultimately the claimed Extermination Camps are a monumental logistical challenge. Murdering and disappearing the bodies of that many people in that time frame is an extremely difficult and dangerous task. It's not a task that a mid-level officer would just put on his own shoulders because of "mind-reading." It's a task that would absolutely require careful planning, budgeting for resources and building suitable structures, provisioning the operation, etc.
We have an extremely large body of documents pertaining to written orders, construction orders, blueprints, plans, budgets when it comes to the concentration and labor camps. But it's the "extermination camps" that have none of those things.
The notion that this operation emerged without orders, without plans, without budgets is highly unlikely and the claim it did so is necessitated by the fact the existence of the operation not corroborated by those things.
You could say the same thing about the Pyramids, and yet, there they are.
Do not mistake difficulty for impossibility. Moving multi-tonne stone blocks down the Nile with Bronze Age technology, let alone assembling them in massive load-bearing structures is perhaps impossible to the mind of a layman. It is not impossible, when you consider the Pharaohs had the resources of a sophisticated state that literally gives out seeds to its farmers so that they can pay their taxes in the expected amount and kind.
Indeed, you could say that the function of states, besides war, is to organize resources to accomplish wasteful yet impressive things. In this light, the Holocaust is merely a modern-day version of pyramids of skulls, at an industrial scale. The Nazis embarked on a multi-front war of conquest which logistics spanned from the coast of Normandy to the fjords of Norway to... Egypt, all the way to the gates of Stalingrad, supplying millions of men in the field with cutting-edge technology. Are you telling me, that of all people, Germans are not organized?
If you look at their plans for Berlin after the war, for the Volkshaile and other wonders, you understand they had no lack of ambition.
Do you have the same level of skepticism for the Pyramids, too? Maybe the Great Wall of China, as well. How about the Holodomor? Maybe aliens did help them. Perhaps aliens were involved in the Holocaust, since is simply impossible for human beings to accomplish it on their own.
We call these aliens bureaucrats.
Obviously the Pyramids are there, you can look at them. Not so for the "gas chambers" or alleged burial sites for millions of people. The remains have never been found. Imagine if the Pyramids were never found and they were never mentioned in any documentation contemporary to their existence.
No in fact the opposite, they were incredibly organized and the level of detail that went into drafting orders, budgeting, planning- the sheer amount of bureaucracy was actually astonishing. The notion that the most sensitive and secretive operation in the entire history of the Third Reich escaped all trace of written orders, planning, budgeting, and procedure that was standard operating procedure among the regime, and was instead coordinated with "mind-reading" among the bureaucracy, is incredibly unlike the German mode of organization.
Have you actually visited Auschwitz and Treblinka? Seen the physical evidence for yourself?
Or are you, to put a blunt point on it, blowing smoke up your ass?
No, you'd probably have some pithy response to that. Okay. How about you go to Tuol Sleng? Or you can go to the Balkans where freshly uncovered mass graves are something of a regular occurrence.
I am very right-wing. I have resided on very right-wing parts of the internet. What I am saying is that you are being a coward. You lack the honest and brutal character of a Serb, who, confronted with war crimes, will go: "It's good that it happened, and we regret that we didn't get enough of you." The fact that you are evading and speaking of apologia is evidence that you know that the crime of genocide is something to be ashamed of.
The lady protests too much, methinks.
To put it in frogtwitter terms, you are a theorycel, an academycuck. If you had the balls, you'd be with the other WN shitposters calling for a second Holocaust. Even the pro-Palestinians have more courage than you. David Irving-style denialism is a relic of the past, and you look ridiculous. The cool zoomers who want to put the Jews in the oven right now sneer at you for even bothering to engage in academic debate in the first place.
If you're not even at the most extreme edge of the Overton window, why bother?
Lay off the ad hominem, please.
I understand that dealing with SS is frustrating to say the least. You’ve still got to follow the civility rules. Take a one-day break.
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