This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Well, when you thought the week was boring...
Charlie Kirk was just shot at an event, shooter in custody. There's apparently a video going around of the attack, but I haven't a desire to see it. People who have seen it are suggesting he was shot center mass in the neck, and is likely dead. That makes this the second time that a shooter targeted a conservative political figure at a political event in two years. If Trump hadn't moved his head at the last second, it would've been him, too.
I've never followed the young conservative influencers much, but Kirk always seemed like the moderate, respectable sort -- it's wild that he would be the victim of political violence and not someone like Fuentes.
I fear this is what happens when the culture war is at a fever pitch. Political violence in the US is at heights not seen since the 1970s, from riots in the 2010s and especially 2020 over police-involved shootings, to the capitol riot in 2021, to the attempted assassination of Trump in Pennsylvania, to the United Healthcare killing, to finally this murder of a political influencer. I fear for my country when I look at how divided we are, and how immanently we seem to be sliding into violence.
I guess I just find politics tiring nowadays. I vote for a Democrat and they do stupid things that conspicuously harm the outgroup. I vote for a Republican and they do stupid things that conspicuously harm the outgroup. Whether J.D. Vance or Gavin Newsom wins in 28, there will be no future in which Americans look each other eye to eye.
I actually believe things are much better in this country than people think: our economy is surprisingly resilient, we've never suffered under the kind of austerity that's defined post-colonial European governance, our infrastructure, while declining, actually functions in a way that most of the world isn't blessed with, our medical system is mired in governmental and insurance red tape yet the standard of care and state of medical research is world-class, our capacity to innovate technologically is still real and still compelling, and one of our most pressing political issues, illegal immigration, exists solely because people are willing to climb over rocks and drift on rafts simply to try and live here.
We have real problems. And intense escalations on the part of our political tribes are absolutely in the top five. We also have a severe problem with social atomization -- and these two things are related -- which has led to our intimate relationship and loneliness crisis, the rapid decline in social capital, and the technological solitary confinement of the smartphone screen which dehumanizes people like real solitary confinement while confining them to the most intense narrative possible. "If it bleeds, it leads" means that many will be led into bleeding.
I don't know how we rebuild the world, or come to a point where Americans of different views can view each other as well-intentioned. But Kirk is just the latest victim of a crisis that I don't know if there's any way to solve.
This event has effected me in a way I didn't expect, which makes me feel vulnerable. I had no idea how sociopathic a substantial number of my close friends are. I also had no idea how simply dumb they are. One of the things I keep seeing them post is "well he said that some gun violence was an acceptable price to pay for the freedoms associated with the 2nd amendment, so fuck him! Haha reap what you sow" etc.
They say this while at the same time arguing that the small number of detrans people are a small price to pay for the benefit of trans procedures overall. Or that the small number of vaccine injuries are a small price to pay for the benefits of vaccines, etc.
They also seem unable to extrapolate what their ideas imply at all. "Charlie Kirk was a nazi, he had bad views, I'm happy he's dead" etc. But how can they honestly not see that this could also be applied to their bad views? Or imagine any higher order effects?
It's very perception-shifting to see people say this stuff. I don't like it.
I'm shocked anyone is shocked. These people have not been quiet or subtle about wanting you dead for like, 10 years now.
Back when I used to live in Northern VA, and it was just assumed by everyone living there that an evil Trump supporter could not possibly be among them, you heard it all the time. The guy working at Trader Joe's who did their wine tastings and was friends with my wife making offhand comments about how great it would be if someone killed Trump. Chatter at the farmer's market around the local Democrat chapter's booth. The weird boomer-folk concert at Wolf Trap I got dragged to by my father in law that opened with an affirmation that it would be great if someone murdered Trump, and his supporters really don't deserve any sympathy either. The NYT publishing their assassination fan fiction, Kathy Griffin holding Trump's severed head, etc, etc. My mother in law got suspended from Twitter for Tweeting that someone should assassinate Trump. That guy who opened for Weird Al that went on the rant about how great it is that the unvaxed are all going to die.
It was only when Trump was finally shot at that the public, mainstream, casual calls for his death started getting tamped down slightly. Tenacious D comes to mind. Of course that didn't stop Destiny from saying it's a good thing an innocent bystander was killed, because that still means one less Trump supporter. Didn't seem to impact his career one iota, though it seems his unhinged behavior has finally dimmed his star somewhat in recent months.
There are stories like this all over that people are sharing, of living covert lives in deep blue areas, and the naked bloodlust on display constantly. If you think wanting Trump, his supporters, and his staff dead isn't a mainstream Democrat position, you have either constructed a labyrinth of cognitive dissonance about why it "doesn't count" because it's simply so common it's normal to you, or you are lying. And I don't care how many liars come out now with their mealy mouthed "We do not condone violence" rehearsed speeches. I refuse to forget the last 10 years.
Yes, a thousand times, this.
I think it was Seamus Coughlin on Auron MacIntyre's recent show who made the point that the Left have always been violent at their core, since they first began in the French Revolution and brought the Reign of Terror. (And I think it was Auron who went from there that this explains why they tend to ally with Muslims — despite all their differences, they're both violent movements that want sincere Christians dead.)
Edit:
And now we'll see what the effect on his popularity is from his current take on this issue:
More options
Context Copy link
FreedomToons' video after the Trump assassination attempt satirized this quite well. "Trump supporters are already alleging that we encouraged the brave hero who shot at him." "There is no room for political violence against the Nazi who is a living embodiment of all our trauma." It's sadly not all that far from actual rhetoric.
There are a few principled voices who unequivocally condemn political violence, for or against their side. But that's not what engages people.
I'll toss out, I don't follow him a lot, or at all really. But Cenk Uygur is virtually the only lefty I've seen not 1000% on board the "Trump is evil and we must murder all his followers" train. I watched him argue for an hour with Krystal Ball, before I couldn't stand her anymore, that there was tons of populist common ground between MAGA and the populist left where progress could be made. That MAGA is not a cult, and they push back when Trump doesn't follow through with his populist agenda. That Don Jr and JD Vance are open to a lot of populist left proposals.
Krystal of course dismissed all this as hopeless because they're all brainwashed fascist and there is no hope in stopping or reforming any of them inside the democratic system.
Even now Cenk is saying that we need peace and reconciliation after this shooting, and because he's on the left, he'll apologize first. And I believe him.
Krystal's latest round of fake tears and pretending that blanket dismissing everyone who disagrees with her as capital F-Fascist who are irredeemable had nothing to do with this I find less convincing.
Thanks for sharing this bit about Cenk. I know very little about him but, in times like these it's heartening to discover that prominent members of your outgroup are more honorable and principled than you had assumed. A little ray of hope.
More options
Context Copy link
Wow, yeah. Cenk's tweet is perfect. And I remember he was similarly classy and principled after Trump's near miss. He's way to the left of me, but it's clear that he's just a fundamentally decent person. If we could only incentivize having more pundits like him, political discourse in this country would be much, much healthier.
More options
Context Copy link
Wow some niche internet gossip I rarely see around here! What the hell happened to Krystal? It seems like her brain is just fully broken at this point. She broke up her family to go marry the coworker she was obviously cheating with, and the show she in some sense started with Saagar Enjeti rarely features him anymore. The times where he and Krystal are together, they frequently end up just bicker: https://youtube.com/watch?v=fcLqYwo4Z4o
I'll be honest I used to watch their show daily, and even tried to become a premium subscriber. Now I'll tune in sometimes as a hate listen, and can rarely make it more than a minute or so.
I donno man. I was a premium subscriber since they started Breaking Points, they were my goto for live coverage or reactions to the debates or election nights. But I made it about a month into this administration before I just couldn't handle it anymore, unsubscribed after years, and told them explicitly why. I don't hate watch, or check clips, or anything anymore. It's best to make a clean break from people you were fans of. No need to add insult to injury watching their trajectory.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Honestly, I always thought that one was in bounds. Killing your opponents in effigy is good clean political fun; I think Griffin got the outsized reaction because the head was so viscerally disturbing. There's a lot that you mentioned that's worse.
But we all know that if James Woods had posed holding an effigy of the severed head of Hillary Clinton he'd be accused of misogyny, inciting violence, stochastic terrorism etc.
There's not even a need to speculate: A rodeo clown in Texas lost his job for wearing an Obama mask. And the State Fair apologized profusely. One side of the aisle is considered out of bounds when it comes to mockery.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Taken in isolation, perhaps it is in bounds. But the vast aggregate of other incidents drag it out of bounds IMHO.
Most of them came after, I believe.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link