This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Btw the subtext here where republicans are the principled free speech party is historically incorrect. There were a long series of religious right-motivated censoring movements in the 90s (and not to mention the Dixie Chicks and Freedom Fries stuff following 9/11). If you came of age during the late 2010s or early 2020s you won’t have the visceral memory of what this was like but I assure you this was a major thing at the time.
The only consistently free speech people have been the centrist democrats (Liberals who want higher taxes) and centrist republicans (Liberals who want lower taxes).
The Dixie Chicks can barely even be called a boycott, let alone censorship, and "freedom fries" is just a way of saying "fuck France", again I fail to see how it prevented anyone from speaking their mind.
The moment you start criticizing the core ideas of liberalism, liberals start doing the same deplatforming campaigns that the far left does, using the exact same arguments.
More options
Context Copy link
I dunno, Al Gore was a southern democrat and his wife was pretty clear about how she felt about naughty song lyrics.
More options
Context Copy link
To be frank, I'd probably still consider myself on the left if the Dems were the same as they were in the 90s. Back when they were against racism (instead of for targeted racism/sexism against, well, me), somewhat areligious (instead of cheering on Islam, of all things), and enthusiastically for free speech (without the mile-wide "except for hate speech" loophole). Yes, I disagreed with them on the size of government, but it's not like Republicans were much better on that front.
An argument can be made that they still are as they were in the 90's, because that's when critical theory was being born; it was also the last major push for censorship in the universities.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The Dixie chick's were never censored. Bush said they are free to speak their mind. Their label kept selling their albums, their concert tours continued, and major media gave them plenty of press to explain themselves and get their ideas out.
Some of their fans didn't buy more CDs. That's not censorship.
Renaming French fries to freedom fries in the congressional cafeteria isn't censorship either.
That's not how I remember it; I recall that '
Clear Channel' EDIT: 'Cumulus' radio removed them from the airwaves, many people sent them nasty letters, and one pundit told them to "shut up and sing" (how would that work, even?).So a single struggling group of radio stations decided to stop playing the Dixie chick's. The big one (clear channel) did not.
Certainly not a situation like, e.g., Kanye getting cut off by his record label, radio, social media, streaming and his bank.
I'd definitely call the latter censorship, particularly given that we know the govt is often pressuring these "private" companies behind the scenes. (I am not aware of Bush doing that, though Obama + Biden definitely did.)
More options
Context Copy link
Rashomon is bullshit; there is an objective truth. Clear Channel did not ban the Dixie Chicks, though a different company called Cumulus Media took them off the air for 30 days. There was a congressional investigation into this.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
2010s and 2020s Democrats are not 2000s and 1990s Democrats. If they were, we'd all be calling antifa a terrorist organization, and we'd all be putting tremendous pressure on universities to deal with the mouthy brats and unqualified professors picking at the scabs of the past, and we'd all recognize that the collective campaign to demonize certain "intersectionalities" is unacceptable and we'd all (at least superficially) be demanding border security, and we'd all be drawing the line at compelled speech surrounding transgenderism. If we had 2000s and 1990s Democrats, we would still have a coherent identity and a purpose and an agreement about the American experiment. We would bitch and complain about taxes and healthcare, and there would be problems to contend with, but those problems would be debatable and reconcilable.
In the limited scope of history you reference, yes, Republicans were actually quite bad in some ways. Democrats had their issues too, but they were culturally sane. 2010s Democrats shifted on a fundamental and cultural level to win an election, and they hitched their wagon to progressives that hijacked the Overton window and took America's culture hostage and irrevocably (thus far) changed it. Mitt Romney never had a chance. He was a racist to the Democrats. Clearly, Democrat behavior is not the only factor for why things changed, but it is the most salient to the average American who has not been heavily captured by progressivism.
It’s my eternal disappointment that Romney ran in 2012 and not 2016. He would have been fantastic in that moment in my opinion. Not a realistic hypothetical because he also ran in 2008 primaries, but Obama was a monster and I think Romney would have done pretty well in most other times and against most other candidates (maybe even 2008, ironically! I could see people trusting him more to handle the financial meltdown that was just starting to happen in the middle of election season than McCain was, who didn’t really seem to have a clue)
In hindsight, yeah I think that would have delayed cultural division, but this would have played into the left's hands. My doubts about Romney in 2016 is that he wasn't the type to directly or effectively challenge the exploding Wokeism that was sweeping across the country. He was probably a much better choice on bread and butter issues, but he was no match for Woke culture. Trump's election created massive division, but the only two real choices in my opinion were division caused by the right putting their feet down, or the left gaining an even more powerful stronghold over our institutions in the long term.
Romney was preference, whereas Trump was necessary.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link