This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Why are people still stuck on this idea?
Israel tried this with Hamas and Hezbollah. Did it work? Did the flashy assassinations achieve victory? Did Israel destroy Hamas and conquer Gaza? No! If they couldn't destroy a small, poor organization in territory they totally surround with total air control, how are they supposed to defeat Iran?
All Israel managed to achieve in a couple years of fighting is killing a fair few of Hamas, killing a lot of civilians, blowing up a lot of buildings, making the Russians of all people look like positive humanitarians. Unlike the Russians, they made zero territorial gains. And they made people trust pagers a lot less, hate Israel a lot more.
Israeli military practice is so bad it should be first, second and third in 'what not to do'. They suffer an embarassingly big terrorist attack from a foe they should totally outclass. Then they totally fail to capitalize on it in world opinion, quite the reverse. They fail to secure any strategic advantages whatsoever with their much vaunted military, despite enormous expenditure of US munitions. Maybe a few months ago they could claim 'oh at least we decapitated Hezbollah' but Hezbollah seems to have just grown another head like a hydra and are taking huge bites out of the Iron Dome.
It will work because USA has limited goals in Iran. No nuclear program, inability for Iran to close the strait and no long range missiles. And they will be left to live and roll in their islamic sty of their own devise. Freedom for Iranian people, secular regime are nice bonuses, but not that important. If you kill the people that can only say no, eventually some that are amenable to yes will come to power. So the deal that the US is offering Iran is pretty sweet. Eventually there will be a clique of takers. Rule however you see fit a nation of 90m with reintegration into the global economy and the massive growth is nice.
Whereas Israel wants Gaza to not exist. Their dehamasing special military operation needed to be much deeper. And Israel didn't had the guts to conduct it properly.
Those are all impossible dream goals without an occupation, is the problem.
More options
Context Copy link
These are all basically impossible. Nuclear program only one that's even remotely possible.
Long range missiles aren't hard to make anymore, and it wouldn't be that hard to build them in secret. Or just build dual use stuff and if needed you can start making them again.
Stop them from closing the straight? Genuinely impossible. Sea mines are ANCIENT tech. Shaheeds are powered by lawnmower engines in some cases and you can literally make suicide drones out of things like wood, cardboard, and Styrofoam. You also need a tiny amount of actual munitions to close the straights, as what actually closes them is insurance companies going "you're own your own if you're hit"
The Houthis are the proof of concept here, as are the Somali pirates. You can be a threat to shipping from a completely failed state.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think this is a function of extreme casualty averseness. If they had occupied Gaza and put a different government in power they could have avoided inspiring the hatred that they did and installed a government other then Hamas. Instead they leveled Gaza from the air killed more civilians then the Russians have in several years of war and Hamas is still in power.
The hatred is already baked in very deeply. The only way you break it at this point is Marshall planning Gaza hard for ~2 generations with borderline cultural genocide levels of education to make Palestinians much less Muslim and much more docile capitalism drones who are fat on milk, honey, and air conditioning.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link