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No specific news item for this culture war post, but perusing the comments on the various Iran war takes, I'm consistently baffled by people's attitudes towards Israel that I think are willfully uncharitable and blind to the history of the Middle East in general.
First, there's this idea that Israel is the primary/principle cause of all instability in the region, and that if we suddenly removed all the Jews and gave back the land to the Palestinians, we would have peace. This is absurd. The violence in Lebanon between shiites/sunnis/christians, the question of the Kurds, and the Sunni/Shiite Cold (I guess hot now) war are all conflicts that have their origins long before the founding of Israel. Heck if Israel wasn't there to focus hatred on, the Arabs would probably fight among themselves even more.
Secondly, it's extremely impractical, if not impossible to remove 6 million Jews from land they've now lived on for (at least) three generations. A second Nakba to correct for the first Nakba doesn't exactly seem just to me, and it's not like many of those Jews can actually go back to where they were from before emigrating to Israel. The Arab countries forcibly expelled all Sephardic Jews in 1948 after Israel won its independence (also weird how this was totally okay but Israel actions during the 1948 war are "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing". Israel also hasn't actually lost a war yet, and they won in 1948 without any outside help except for some weapons for the Czech Republic, so this would be an extremely hard sell to a population that really doesn't want to leave.
Thirdly, it's not like Israel hasn't tried to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine question or with its neighbors. Rabin actually signed the Oslo accords (before he was assassinated) and it looked like the Palestinians would be able to move towards self governance. Unfortunately, every government the Palestinians have elected have made it their central platform to destroy Israel, so it's somewhat logical that Israel decided that they couldn't self-govern (similar logic to why Israel and Iran are fighting). When I was living in Israel in the summer of 2019 (not a Jew, just doing research), it looked this might be changing, but unfortunately October 2023 changed all that. In terms of its Arab neighbors, Israel has repeatedly given up territory for peace. Of course unfortunately neither Jordan nor Egypt want the West Bank/Gaza (and also refuse to treat second, third and even fourth generation Palestinian refuges as citizens).
Fourthly, there's a (somewhat true) idea that Israel has an outsized influence in US politics. But the US also has an extremely outsized influence in Israeli politics. Up until the mid 1970s, Israel was heavily socialist country that had far more ties to the Soviet Union than the US wanted. Market liberalization similar to what happened under Reagen/Thatcher destroyed the Israeli Kibbutz system economically (among other things, I have a very long essay on my blog about this) that completely destroyed the Israeli left. Netenyahu is the logical result of this.
Fifthly, the claims of Israeli genocide in Gaza seem to be greatly exaggerated and very selective when it comes to comparisons of other actual genocides going on in the world right now (Sudan). I've been hearing claims of genocide for at least ten years now, but somehow there are more Palestinians in Gaza now than there were then? If the Israelis are trying to genocide the Palestinians they're clearly not very good at it (might be more effective to give out birth control). Claims of apartheid are more fair, but are no different from how Palestinians are treated in Arab countries. Why the special criticism of Israel?
Maybe making a Jewish state in the Middle East wasn't a great idea. So what? We live in the world where that's been the case for nearly 80 years and it's not going away without another ethnic cleansing. Israel does cause a lot of chaos and conflict in the region, but 90% is in direct response to its neighbors wanting to destroy it and kill its entire population. Why is the answer to somehow endorse that, rather than admit that maybe its time for the Palestinians to give up claims to land they haven't lived on since WW2, and the population of the Middle East to accept (as their leaders by and large have) that Israel is here to stay.
Is it? The Israelis didn't seem to have much problem expelling the Palestinians from land they had inhabited for much longer.
There is a myth that Palestinian Arabs are some kind of ancient people who was in the area for a long time. In reality, the majority of Palestinian Arabs are descendants of people who immigrated to modern day Israel from other parts of the Ottoman Empire. In large part due to economic activity spurred by early Zionists. That's why so many Palestinian Arabs have names like "Al-Masri" which means "Egyptian"
As far as expulsions go, those were limited to a few key areas. Which is why to this day Israel has a substantial Arab minority.
In any event, I think that by "impractical," what was meant that (1) the Jews in Israel will never voluntarily agree to it; and (2) they are sufficiently strong militarily that as a practical matter nobody can make them do it.
I gotta ask, do you honestly expect this to be even slightly convincing to anyone who isn't already on board? You sound like every denier who has ever had to justify something unjustifiable.
And, if you wanna go for right makes right morality, then surely you'll be perfectly fine if one day the shoe is on the other foot and the Palestinians achieve military supremacy?
I'll believe it when I see it.
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They'd have to have more schools than weapons depots, and maybe not rip out water mains installed by bleeding hearts to convert into weapons.
Flying pigs will convert to Judaism first.
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Yes. But I think what you are asking is whether I expect to convince anyone who is an Israel-hater. The answer to that is "no."
Apparently you are not aware that the Arabs (this was before "Palestinians" were invented) expelled the Jews from Gaza City, Hebron, and many other places. And, as a supporter of Israel, I would have been okay with letting it go if they had stopped there instead of trying to wipe out all of Israel.
But in any event, to answer your question, if (1) the Palestinian Arabs achieved military supremacy; and (2) there was a Jewish minority in or near "Palestine" that constantly engaged in aggression and terrorism with the idea of wiping out all the Palestinian Arabs; then (3) those Arabs would be justified in expelling that portion of the Jewish minority that was causing problems, justified in occupying Jewish territory for defensive purposes, etc.
Well, I'm glad you admitted to being in favor of ethnic cleansing at least.
I think it would be more fair to say that I'm not categorically opposed to ethnic cleansing. As another poster pointed out, there are scenarios where it is the least bad option.
Perhaps more importantly, if there was an ethnic cleansing at some point in the past, I don't necessarily believe that there is a categorical imperative to undo it.
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Are there no circumstances where something like ethnic cleansing is not the least bad option? I think I'm in favor of ethnic cleansing the same way I am in favor of abortion.
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