This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Let me tell the skeleton of a similar story about a good friend of mine. He's a bright guy, pharmacist by trade, musically inclined. Got hooked up with a real psycho. Not "omg my ex is craaaazy", real-deal double digit involuntary commitments, full bore diagnosed and sentenced bipolar. She's cute but not that cute, a solid 6 or 7 on a good day, kinda mousy. The kind of girl who ruins every event she attends by having a very public meltdown, taking bizarre offense to everyone and everything, and clinging to my buddy like he's the only white man and they're on safari.
Nobody liked this bitch, not his friends, not his family, not one single person in his life, and we told him. Luckily he dumped her after a couple months. We threw him a party on the theme of "ding dong, the witch is dead". We got him set up with new dates. They were back together in a month. They would break up and get back together a dozen or so times over the next five years. They had a kid, a lawsuit over custody and child support. Then they got back together, had another kid, got married. Then they separated, got back together, lasted a few more years before getting divorced and what does my genius friend do?
Knocks her up one more time after the divorce was filed.
Now he has to pay her mortgage and see this woman twice a week for the next twelve years, eighteen from when they split.
You can try to suss some deep social thing from this, but my guy had options. He had warnings, blatant and flashing. He was sane and smart enough to understand, he wasn't tricked or coerced. He had other women interested. Some part of her crazy just matched up right with his crazy and he couldn't stop going back to her. He had to be getting something out of it, I figure.
People are bad at relationships, and a lot of us are lying to ourselves about what we actually want and are actually willing to tolerate. I don't think that's an indictment of any higher organization than the people inside the relationship. That said, I think our social models of lifelong partnerships are pretty stunted in popular culture.
I haven't been able to find data on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some types of cluster B disorders increased fertility. Obviously the selection effect in the past couldn't have been too harsh, given those disorders exist today. Also the phenomenon of BPD women being attractive if a poor choice. I have a distant family member with a similar story, except she aborted her 4 pregnancies.
More options
Context Copy link
The second you said this I basically filled in the rest of the story.
You know what they say about grippy socks
More options
Context Copy link
Grippy socks, grippy box.
Men would be better off in nearly every respect if we weren't lead around by our dicks... but also, we wouldn't be men.
More options
Context Copy link
Sounds like a classic BPD story? Which is to say, yes, us men often make poor relationship choices as well.
Well, love isn’t really a rational phenomenon itself unless you want to analyze arranged marriages. When I was growing up, the overwhelming majority of relationships and the marriages that grew out of them with my older peers were ‘all’ semi-arranged relationships. And they’re still happily married to this day. The ones who floundered and did the worst were always those who did it themselves and ignored the independent advice and judgment of others.
In trad society, arranging marriages is job for the old women of the family (with assistance of professional matchmakers when family is of means).
The worst horror tales we see in 19th century classic French literature and modern third world happen when father driven mad by greed (or desire for noble title) messes with these things.
That's an interesting take. I've warmed up to arranged marriages as I grew more trad for the reasons Tretiak outlined, but couldn't quite endorse them because of the horror stories you mentioned. This does feel like the missing piece.
Typical story from 19th century classical literature:
Young man born in the gutter pulls himself by his bootstraps, becomes rich, moves into high society, finds himself unwelcome. No matter how rich he is, he is still seen as a peasant.
What to do? Marry his daughters into nobility. But what nobles would want to marry muggle girls? Only broken, impoverished and maximally degenerate ones.
Despite protests, dad forces the weddings to proceed. Everyone suffers maximally and dies horribly.
This is why 19th century eugenicists saw arranged marriages as dysgenic, as mixing rising high achieving blood with old degenerate one that produces nothing but disaster.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think anyone who's introspective and tries being thoughtful would come to the conclusion that young adults aren't reliable actors in their best interest in this space. Forget the specific matter for the moment and think even in more general terms. Just looking back 20 years ago I can see so many things today where I say to myself "God how ignorant I was," and today think 20 years from now, how ignorant I'll be right now. The two ideologies of individual happiness and personal choice that dominate civil society today aren't worth the costs people pay when they make the 'wrong' decisions. And that's their words, not mine. When I walk around here, I don't see a lot of happy people. I see people swallowed up by digital distractions, quick dopamine hits, but nothing that's fulfilling and enduring in any sort of long-term way.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I mean, in a sense it is thé fault of society- we have a norm that adults get to make their own bad decisions about relationships. You will find other horror stories from Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, but probably not this one. Either of these two.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link