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I think this you're missing @EverythingIsFine 's whole point because you present this situation as a counterargument to his "we should care more about discrimination than stereotyping" spiel, but in your situation no one is actually being discriminated against. Is having a car parked next to you a public good?
If you were interviewing for a job and trashed their resumes in the basis if their race, then there would be something to talk about. But while having a particular negative attitude about some identifiable group is not necessarily a good thing (and indeed may in fact be a bad thing), the OP was very specifically saying that society should be less concerned about that than it is.
... And in any case, I think "black" is far from the most predictive factor here. "Young" and "men" are hugely predictive, and treating people differently based on their age and gender is good, actually (🇻🇦). But what decides my perception of (other) young men as safe is primarily their presentation of class status and upbringing. I would feel plenty safe around any group of young men wearing suits, carrying college textbooks, holding hobby objects (e.g. skateboards, cameras, basketballs), engaging in a church event, etcetera. I would feel about equally unsafe regardless of race around a group of young men that are drunk, smoking pot in public, blasting loud music, wearing excessively baggy clothes, etcetera. If you pressed me, I would admit that I probably felt slightly more unsafe around a low-class afroamerican group than a low class white or latino group, but race genuinely does not rank very high in my factor analysis.
By that reasoning being forced to use a segregated water fountain isn't discrimination either, as long as the water quality isn't different between the fountains.
This is the Internet autist argument. "They're just showing social disdain for black people. Social disdain causes them no material problems, so it isn't discrimination and doesn't harm them. It's just feelings! Who cares about feelings?" Avoiding people partly based on their race is race-based harm. It may be necessary under some circumstances, but don't kid yourself about what it has become necessary to do.
... Do you seriously not see the difference between a measure that restricts the volition of others, versus a measure that doesn't?
Anyways, you're still missing the point. Just address the OPs thesis that we should be spending more effort holding people accountable for acts of bigotry and less effort for holding people accountable for feelings of bigotry. Do you disagree with that premise? I'm not going to be pulled into the orthogonal argument you clearly want to have until you at least admit that it is orthogonal. Good faith debate is one person claims "A" and the other person claims "Not A." You are claiming B. Arguing against A will not establish B. Arguing for B will not defeat A.
It isn't "restricting the volition of others" in the sense meant by libertarians, to fail to allow you to use someone else's property, and to use force when you attempt to do so anyway.
I think that like a lot of advice, some people need it more and some people need it less. People on social media (or regular media) probably need to care about feelings of bigotry less. People here probably need to care about it more. Hurting someone's feelings is actually important. Yes, sometimes people's feelings get hurt too easily, but I deny that having someone avoid you because of your race is such a case.
Okay I can tell we're getting into bravery debate territory here (not your fault, I think even OP was aware of the doodoo they were stepping in.) Trying to phrase this neutrally though... If you were the racism tsar (but otherwise kept your values) and could magically alter all government-sponsored antiracism messaging within the united states to one of the following options, which would you choose?
I think OPs argument is in line with point two, assuming limited anti-bigltry resources.
I don't know how libertarians use it. I'm using it in the sense that I would be a lot more offended by someone refusing to let me use a waterfountain than refusing to park their car near me. I would still be sad about the car thing, but I would rather more resources be spent fighting the waterfountain thing.
Hurting people feelings isn't not important, but I think OPs point (which I agree with), is that we are weighing the prevention of hurt feeling too highly relative to other antiracist goals.
By definition I'd be aiming the messaging at the public, not the people here, and the public needs different advice than the people here. Furthermore, I pointed out that avoiding black people because of crime might be necessary and racist at the same time and I wouldn't message people to avoid necessary things. It also raises the question of what counts as "bigoted acts", since most people would think that avoiding a group of people based on race is a bigoted act.
So my answer is "probably the first option, but it's completely irrelevant".
There's a famous joke I could invoke here, but I'll just say that "we" is made of different groups that need different advice. I'm sure there are people on tumblir who are weighing hurt feelings too highly. I don't think people on themotte are weighing them anywhere near that much.
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No. There is a massive difference between a group of young Asian guys and black guys hanging out. Basic stats will tell you this.
Yes there are other indicators (eg if they were all wearing suits you’d feel more comfortable). But if you understand crime stats, being black is highly predictive in the same way being male is.
Advanced stats will tell you otherwise. Do you not know what a factor analysis is?
It literally isn't though. If you keep everything constant except sex, male vs female is still HUGELY predictive of criminality. If you keep everything constant except race, the relationship is much, much weaker. Your counterargument is going to be that things are not, on average, kept constant-- but that's still not a convincing reason to look at mostly proxy factors for criminality (like race) rather than much more causitice factors like SES.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11868975/
Black women murder at a rate higher than Asian men. Black women murder rate similar to white male rate.
> Poster specifically mentions factor analysis
> Blithely replies with yet another topline aggregate statistic
That's a statistical non-sequitur.
That’s just silly. Untangling which factor is causing what is incredibly challenging since you can’t really run a natural experiment. But the stats are so extreme that dismissing race because it makes OO uncomfortable is irrational.
That is, both posters make a claim on what causes crime. I respond with stats that show facially a pretty strong issue for OP’s claim. OP cannot simply cite factor analysis without simply privileging his hypothesis.
This is also an area where publishing anything that supports my hypothesis is career suicide (eg see what happened when academics published results showing police killing was not racial predicted). Therefore, you would expect no one in the academy to attempt to prove my hypothesis—it is verboten to even consider it.
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Are you sure? I don't have a link, but I remember saying breakdowns by sex, age, and race, where the criminality statistics for blacks looked pretty dismal (black women coming out worse than white men).
Again, I'm pretty sure SES is also just a proxy, and actually a poorer one than race.
So I went out and tried to find a study about this and found a reddit comment that links to a study you might be interested in:
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskSocialScience/comments/4957dc/are_there_studies_comparing_us_crime_rates_by/d0p7aqn/
I can see the outline for a counterargument that goes, "race is causative of ethnicity (meaning: race linked culture), which is causative of marital status of parents, immigrant status, etcetera, which are causative of violence." Again, though... You can just filter on the direct causes instead. Fatherless behavior looks similar regardless of race, and regardless of race I would discriminate against young men engaged in it.
Just think about base rates here. People are very unlikely to commit violent crimes in general, regardless of race. But there are particular adjectives that you can apply to people that significantly raise their threat level. Imagine you have a database of every person (on earth/in your country/in your city/whatever), and a query that filters that database to only the subset that matches all adjectives in a list. Your goal is to minimize the average likelyhood of the people returned by that query committing a crime against you. In which order would you prioritize removing adjectives from the following list?
[Black fatherless poor druggie young male]
I would go for either "druggie" or "male" first, then after those two are gone "poor", then either "young" or "fatherless".
Plausibly there are some co-correlations, where the intersection of two adjectives interact to make things particularly bad... But I'd guess that in most of the cases where that happens with "Black", that's more attributable to discrimination than to afroamerican culture.
Sure, I'm quite inclined to see fatherlessness as causative, but doesn't it give you pause that we were just talking about SES, sex, and age as causative, and we're moving on to fatherlessness without skipping a beat?
Look at the numbers from zeke. I don't see how you can put either sex or age before race. You can find similar results for SES.
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Do you see young Asian guys loitering in the hood often?
I wasn’t in the hood
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...Yes? Asians are tightwads, so they live in the hood, and they stay up real late and like to go out and about.
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