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There are no non-loser first world men who are involuntarily celibate, you can passport bro if it comes down to it(and even if you have strong ethnic preferences, very poor countries with lots of white women exist)- but it usually doesn't. I don't know if it'll stay at that point forever, but most men can get themselves into a long term relationship, even if they're pretty average(and average is a broad term). Yes, this might entail lowering your standards, you're probably not that much of a catch either.
'Just be rich enough to fly to another country and find a wife' is not the stirring rebuttal you think it is.
I understand the Motte is weird, but you do realize that this is outside the price range for most men, yes?
You know I am not a tech worker, right?
Affording a mail order bride/passport bro wife(I don’t quite know the difference between the two, and I suspect there isn’t one) is doable for a man earning mildly above median(which is a very reasonable expectation in a high opportunity society), because there are many such men who have done it. And most men don’t have to, thé average 35 year old man is married. The point is that unmarried western men who are genuinely above average in desirability are unmarried because they choose to be, perhaps by priority- not because there are no options.
Also with modern migration etcetera you can passport bro lite without leaving your immediate surrounds in a lot of places. I met my Malaysian wife in Australia and now live in Malaysia, but having extensively online dated on my way to finding my wife the majority of women who hit my minimum threshold of non-fat, has a job, doesn't have somebody else's kids, not overtly trashy in order to have a first date were born overseas.
A combination of the locals 'pricing themselves out of the market', value drift in Western women etcetera
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It's an option yes, but it's not a scalable solution for a lot of people. That's also like saying starvation isn't a real problem because you can always dig out of a dumpster if you're really that desperate. Yeah. Technically that is true. It's not a sound policy to address unemployment or homelessness. I have options in my social circle available to me if all I was doing was looking to get laid and knock a former fling up or a friends that I know are on the level. That's not generally what they're looking for though.
But starvation isn't a real problem in the modern west. People who can't afford food will be taken care of- possibly by food waste, but more often by charity- either private, government, or informal(eg the donut shop worker giving unsold product to the homeless at close instead of throwing it out for raccoons).
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I'm reactionary enough to suggest that an average male shouldn't have to leave the country of his birth to have a prospect of finding a wife. That's a major social failure.
And now you've just exported the externality. What of the poor males in the countries where the women are being plucked from? Now they've got to compete with wealthy foreigners and THEY can't passport bro it up.
And it all leaves the fundamental, core problem. Men have no stake in the continued maintenance of their future if they don't expect to be able to form a family. Why would they throw in their lot with their home country at that point? What's their buy-in?
And of course, all the single cat ladies will continue to cast votes in their country too.
However, if we were to implement an immigration program specifically to allow scads of young, nubile, single women to attain citizenship if they marry and pop out some kids, I think the incentives overall would get aligned REAL QUICK.
Of course, it appears that a huge excess portion of the ACTUAL immigrants we get are young males.
You'd be amazed how deep the chain of passport broing goes into the developing world. I'm an Australian who met my Malaysian Chinese wife in Australia and now live in Malaysia. The stereotypical Malaysian Chinese boomer guy looking for a second wife/mistress will usually pull from Vietnamese girls who are a bit poorer and then the equivalent Vietnamese guy will usually pull from Laos. God knows what the Laotian guy's doing, though.
Padme: He gets to marry the Australian woman who's now available... right?
Trickle down chain hypergamy :laughing_crying_emoji:
Simplified diagram as there could be more northwest-pointing arrows at steeper and steeper angles.
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This is my point. There's a bottom somewhere, unless everyone is going around stealing everyone else's women.
This is not me saying I owe the Malaysian, Chinese, Laotian, or Filipino men anything. "Stealing" women from competing tribes is about the most natural process we can imagine.
But as usual, I'm an advocate for facing and solving the actual problem head-on.
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It seems to me that modern society, and this goes beyond just issues of sex, works by honestly demanding very little of people. I hate taxes as much as the next guy, but I'm a pampered tech worker who works in a climate controlled office. When it comes down to it, I live a very comfy life even if I'm taxed a lot and culturally disparaged. The closest thing I've done to sacrificing my comfortable life is having a kid, and even then I still either work in a climate controlled office or live in a climate controlled house. I'm still comfy. The men and women who become NEETs are in a similar boat. The middle class too. Not much is demanded of most people.
It remains to be seen how modern western society would function in a crisis that does demand broad sacrifice from its people. We are not currently in that state.
My hatred runs a bit deeper because I'm aware of what we could be achieving if we weren't wasting billions, arguably trillions per year on programs that aren't just wasteful, but often actively detrimental.
The lackadaisical attitude to the waste allows it to continue.
But the point rings true. Nobody in America is really expected to shoulder serious burdens on behalf of the whole.
Although it gets to a question that came up recently. which subset of people are actually doing the critical work that allows the rest of us to coast, relatively speaking?
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I’m not disputing that something is broken in a system where guys who round to average and aren’t doing anything wrong need to go to foreignstan to find a wife often enough for it to be a discussed phenomenon(to be perfectly fair, this system isn’t great for women either). Just saying that ‘incels’ aren’t an actual thing- they don’t ’just Want a wife’, those are available assuming these guys aren’t just, giant losers, and basement dwellers wouldn’t have been married in 1955 either(there were just fewer of them). The craving for validation from a specific kind of woman is a different phenomenon entirely, and while it’s not entirely unprecedented it’s also… look, these guys want to be rock stars. It’s not a totally natural response to circumstances, thé history of loveless men is pretty long and it tends to look like broadening thé search pool, not like endless public whining about the need to restructure society completely.
I think you're understating the effect of being neurotic/intensely spectrumed. I've got a family friend who's a very brilliant (Major international awards) academic mathematician but socially incapable who essentially got adopted by his wife in high school in rural Australia 40 years ago and now has a bunch of sons who have not fallen far from the tree.
The sons haven't been able to get into academia since they're cis hetero whites and they're intensely struggling to find productive employment and/or girlfriends since the dating app and job app realm is fucking brutal for a nerdy white autist. Longterm I'd expect they probably find partners born overseas due to the market and cultural dynamics, but it does seem downright deranged how hard it is for them to get meaningfully on any ladder. Their father's a genius but I also don't think he'd be doing particularly better if he were in his twenties circa 2020.
I mean, unemployed, uneducated men with poor social skills are losers though.
They're educated, heavily so. They just didn't have a meaningful pathway into professional academia as a result of having no diversity points and part of my point is that the characteristics that would have landed them somewhat comfortably 20-30 years ago just haven't really had any purchase in dating or job markets.
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Any one of those three is sufficient to cause the problem. Especially the last. It's just a tautology, if they're an 'incel' they must be a 'loser' with poor social skills, or they wouldn't be an incel.
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I had an Australian Indian friend. His dad went to one of the best universities in India via scholarship, moved to Australia and is among the top rated neurosurgeons in the entire country. Absolute narcissist though. Verbally and physically abused his son to a point where his mom (who was abusive herself) took him and his sister away. The sister was adored by both their parents, turned out fine, got an arranged marriage and moved to Singapore where she recently had a son. My friend seemed like he didn't fall far from the tree when we were growing up but... he sorta turned out okay. Above average intelligence, normal job, okay social life, level headed. Unsure about his dating life though.
Indians have effective social technology to deal with this issue via arranged marriage of awkward guys who have their shit together and would have no chance in the 'dating market'. I've got good Indian friends with decent jobs and who've had arranged marriages in the last couple years who happily acknowledge this fact and thank their many gods that the system is in place.
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When I look around at a lot of couples, I see examples of people who I think have a wrong headed attitude to what a relationship is and should be. Two crackheads can stay together forever, but that isn't the kind of thing that makes up a good relationship. Even mutual interests isn't sufficient for the things that matter. At some point, the honeymoon phase is over. You know all their stories. You're with them at their best and you're also going to slog through things with them at their worst. Just because people are in relationships doesn't at all mean they're happy or functional and fulfilled. And frankly when it comes to your obligations to your wife/husband/children, your happiness can kiss my ass and go right out the window as far as I'm concerned. If the choice is between your family or your happiness, there's only 1 correct answer to that question; and only in healthy relationships are those 2 the same thing.
Most guys I know don't want what it is you're describing. They are intelligent, industrious and very hard working people who want a fairly simple life and were raised in and for a social model that's been out of vogue for almost a century now. We no longer live in a family society. We live in an individual society that isn't conducive to the former. Either economically or socially.
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This is just a tautology.
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