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It's like you're in an MMA match, and the guy you're fighting is going to kill you if you lose (but he's going to walk away regardless).
Is there any belief by any serious thinker that this is a war of genocide?
Ukraine gets to choose between being Russia's puppet state and being used as a buffer between it and NATO, or being NATOs puppet state and filled with Africans. Such is the fate of minor nations. There will almost certainly be more Ukrainians in three generations under Russian dominion than NATO. Unless you stretch the definition of Ukrainian to mean anyone on Ukranian soil, but then what was the point of keeping Russians out if you can just change the meaning of words and suddenly everyone is Ukranian?
Yes. Numerous Russians, including Vladimir Putin and Aleksandr Dugin, have said that one of the goals of the war is the elimination of Ukrainian nationhood as an idea and making the Ukrainians understand that they are actually "little Russians". Dugin at least is a serious thinker, and this qualifies as genocide under the standard definition.
By that definition the America I grew up in has been genocided.
Which I do actually believe, but I'd appreciate if an ounce of worry for Ukraine was spared for the remnants of my peoples.
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How do you figure it for a genocide? In almost any reasonable measure, both Russians and Ukrainians are Orthodox Christian Slavs. They’re probably as close as something like England and Australia or Canada. If England wants to end the idea of Australia, that may be terrible for all kids of reasons, but it would be hard to make one Anglosphere country invading another into a genocide simply because they’re ethnically the same. If you took DNA from random individuals from both countries, telling them apart is probably difficult. At least in Gaza, you can likely find enough difference between a Palestinian and Israeli to bolster the claim that it’s at least plausible as a genocide.
In the current year, there is a Ukrainian nation. If Putin succeeds in his political goal, there will not be. That is the meaning of the word "genocide". That you think there shouldn't be a Ukrainian nation is irrelevant, given that there clearly is - people don't fight this well for non-existent nations.
And how do we define “nation”? I mean, the Confederate States of America no longer exists, nobody claims we “genocided” the confederate states. There are regions of countries like Catalonia or Transnitria or Northern Ireland or other regions that want independence but can’t get them. There were regions of modern nation states that contain ethnic minorities that differ from the main population.
So I mean if any region of the globe that has ever been independent, ever wanted to be independent, or contain a group of ethnic minorities that differ from the majority is being genocided by not being granted independence, then there’s a lot more genocide going on then people would admit. And really, the word loses its meaning. If obliterating the idea of the CSA is genocide, and the statehood of Texas is genocide, and Quebec as well, then I mean sure. But at that point, it’s hard to have this be a uniquely evil thing if our enemies do now what we did and are still doing is genocide and us doing the same is not genocide.
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That's all it takes? Is genocide even a bad thing?
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There is no evidence that the west wants to fill Ukraine with Africans. Indeed, western European countries might quite reasonably believe that dumping Africans in Ukraine will just cause them to migrate from Ukraine to western European countries that are actually wealthier than Africa.
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We are supposed to treat seriously claims of "white genocide" because white people in the west can't breed. However, when Russia deports ukranian children and bans the ukranian language the G-word is totally unfitting.
Very few wars are fought with the explicit aim of putting a bullet in the head of every citizen. Nevertheless, wars short of that can be existential for the state.
Interesting. And Ukraine was being filled with Africans between 2013 and 2022, right? And e.g. Poland (also a nato puppet if there ever was one) is also filled with Africans?
South Asians, and at a somewhat slower pace than the wokest countries in NATO, but yes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Indian population of Poland is around 0.09%. Perhaps some sophistry can turn this into "filled", but I'm not impressed.
When responding, please keep in mind that Russia is 10%-15% Muslim.
This is exactly the same argument that was used in the western parts of Europe a few decades ago, a mere glance at them now clearly shows that, if anything, it's sophistry to deny Poland is being deliberately filled with foreigners.
I don't understand the claim. The biggest foreign worker demographics in Poland are Ukranians and Belorussians, together accounting for about a million people out of 1.3 million foreign workers. I do concede these are foreigners, but somehow I doubt that this is what we are talking about.
The word "deliberately" is especially puzzling in this case since these visas were apparently issued illegally as revealed by an internal investigation. Seems easier to sweep this under the rug if it really is coming from a deliberate top down policy, although I do concede that in the strictest pedantic sense these visas were issued "deliberately" as opposed to accidentally.
Are you under the impression that there are no foreign workers in Russia, or that Russian work visas are somehow not issued "deliberately"?
The current amount of immigrants from other parts of the world is irrelevant to the claim about Poland being filled with Africans/South Asians, because that amount is changing. To confirm this, all you have to do is look at how demographic trends developed in other European countries. At one point they also had just a few percent of Africans / Asians / Muslims, and your exact argument was deployed in the exact same way you are doing here.
Not sure how that's relevant. The illegal immigrants that were let in under Biden were also illegal. They were still let in deliberately.
Okay. However, as I already noted, over 10% of Russia is Muslim. If 0.09% of Poland being Indian means it's over for Poland and they're going to be flooded with Indians, that should go a hundredfold for Russia and becoming Russian clay results in Ukraine being flooded with Muslims.
I did note that a pedant would say that visas were not granted accidentally and therefore it was deliberate. However, this also means that Russia is deliberately filling the country foreigners as well - so I remain confused where and why the distinction is drawn.
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