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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   37939 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 20, 2023

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(1). Why should the US be poorer? Is it just because we are such an outlier on income compared to everyone else?

(2) Russia has already been gutted of a lot of the intelligentsia. Not sure there’s much left. Vietnam I’ve gotten curious about. I heard they have really high test scores and didn’t know that. But what great scientist has ever been from there or tech developed? Might be a population to target.

(3). I believe institutions do matter. His model isn’t the model that predicts everything but I think it contributes along with institutions and geography. US has badass geography.

(5). Would like to see the math behind this claim. Not reading a whole paper to see why. Internal standard of living in Argentina I’ve heard is much higher than Econ stats. But yes it’s an outlier.

For why some country’s go free market with more immigration I think a lot of that is a native backlash to giving more to poorer communities. In America it’s the blacks and some immigrants. If America wasn’t diverse then I think we probably would be more socialist. And from an Econ perspective it might maximize utility at expense of growth. We would be more like Canada without blacks. And people have a revulsion from paying more in taxes to give to a different tribe. If you have a richer tribe and a poorer tribe you go more free markets because rich tribe doesn’t want to share. Also smaller safety nets and free immigration don’t mix well as it adds negative selection bias.

Honestly I think Jones is a racists hbd and tries to dress up a theory for the view by not saying what he believes directly.

Why should the US be poorer? Is it just because we are such an outlier on income compared to everyone else?

We have lots of immigrants and ex-slaves who drag down the stats, and yet...

(2) Vietnam is interesting because it’s a dirt poor developing country with relatively good HBD and a significant language barrier to the rest of the world, so you’re going to see things like high test scores and not a lot of high achieving scientists.

(5) Argentina is also a weird economy for a variety of reasons, but as I understand it it had a very strong economy in the early 20th century, some stagnation after WWII, and a major crisis after unwisely starting a war with Britain which they never recovered from. But Latin America in general tends to have higher standards of living than you’d think from looking at their GDP per capita, too.

Why should the US be poorer?

The three factors are length of time a nation has been organized as a State (US 247 years England 374 years) had settled agriculture (US 415ish years, England 6,000 years), and state of technology lets give these equal weight. These predict that England should have a GDP that's larger than the US (it's had more time under a state and significantly more time using agriculture). But the opposite is true.

The three factors are length of time a nation has been organized as a State (US 247 years England 374 years)

This comparison seems wrong from the start. England and America didn't evolve seperately, England passed the torch to America. The US achieved so much in 247 years largely because they could draw on hundreds of years of English political tradition.

It seems to me that a particular land area being under agriculture longer is either neutral or a detriment when it comes to development, while the ancestors of the inhabitants being agriculturalists for a long time is the source of the advantage.

Iraq today is almost completely desertified after millennia of soil erosion and depletion, while the prosperity of the US is in part due to its natural resources being underutilized until recently, when a population with generations of accumulated experience in agriculture and industry was able to expand with relatively little opposition into virgin territory.

I guess the argument could hold up if the Mesopotamian agriculturalists relocated to a more favorable area and were able to use their accumulated skills to jump ahead quickly, like the American colonists. But this still runs into the problem that their skills are constrained by the environment.

Imo a more predictive version of SAT* would have to include a “G” for geography, encompassing things like natural resources, soil quality, likelihood of natural disasters (ie America and Singapore supposedly have lower human capital than their growth rates would indicate but both are blessed with really favorable geography).

But at that point you can’t really create a simple formula for a simple theory anymore, you’re back to saying “growth is a whole bunch of different factors”

For what it's worth, Arab immigrants from the Fertile Crescent do form a market-dominant minority across much of Latin America (including the president of El Salvador who has been getting a lot of attention recently) and Africa.

And as far as simple formulas go, I'd be surprised if IQ by itself didn't get you a lot closer to the mark than SAT, with the caveat that many, if not most, nations are too diverse to be analyzed as a single unit regardless of what parameters are being considered (e.g. Latin America has Whites, Mestizos, and Natives; India has its castes; every African country is a patchwork of tribes and ethnic groups).

In terms of how this potential, however it is determined, relates to a given country's economic performance, I often analogize it to genetically predicted height, where it's easier to make someone shorter than they would be otherwise through malnutrition, but quite hard to make them taller than their genes indicate. We can easily find pairs of countries where one has been held back from its true potential, usually but not exclusively by communism e.g. North and South Korea or Burma and Thailand. The key challenge in terms of immigration policy would be to identify nations underperforming relative to their potential and encourage migration from those places specifically.

Yes the key things on agriculture and state is it’s the people who did those things. People who were able to create state capacity at lower levels of technological development. Capable of forming large scale militaries to protect their farmland and resource buildup from rival tribes looking to take their stuff etc.

As sliders1234 points out, these first two are kinda nonsense. Pretty much all the European, Middle Eastern, and North African countries are similarly situated when it comes to agriculture; at least, as far as I know, agriculture has never been lost and extends to pre-history. And all of these nations descend from states thousands of years ago, though you can sometimes argue continuity. That England colonized the US shouldn't reset the clock, though.

The people populating America today are not the native Americans. They’re people from technologically advanced countries that had agricultural.

The native Americans are in fact poor. So I don’t think your argument holds any water.

The model seems like bull, but those are the factors that cause it to predict a much lower income for the US than the actual data. The US is pretty weird, in that its population changed dramatically over the last 420 or so years, but there's no did your population change dramatically factor in the model.

and having a much worse backyard than it would have had if it had been in Europe

..worse?

You mean better.

A rich country unable to industrialise would have only ended up one way in Europe - as lunch.

That’s all suppositional. Spain is well run in many ways.

Agreed, they had a particularly difficult time between trying to make a quantum leap from a country excelling in agriculture to an industrialized nation via extreme ISI, coupled with a broader international economic landscape that didn't support them. I have to assume their export driven economy in particular took a significant blow following the opening of the Panama Canal redirecting shipping, trade, and investment to the North, making their geographical position at the far south suddenly a hindrance rather than a unique advantage. Between the World Wars their FDI also dried way up as their former European sponsors went broke and America remained aloof, distrustful of what it saw as South American fascism (famously prohibiting European countries from purchasing from Argentina with Marshall Plan funds). As economic conditions got worse people naturally protested and the government responded by writing populist checks that its deteriorating trade and investment landscape couldn't really cover, and things spiraled ever farther.

(1). Why should the US be poorer? Is it just because we are such an outlier on income compared to everyone else?

Not that we are an outlier compared to other countries but compared to other countries with the same SAT*

(2) Russia has already been gutted of a lot of the intelligentsia. Not sure there’s much left. Vietnam I’ve gotten curious about. I heard they have really high test scores and didn’t know that. But what great scientist has ever been from there or tech developed? Might be a population to target.

Tbh the specific countries aren't important here, they were randomly picked. There are supposedly 40 countries ranked higher than the US on SAT*, many of which have lower development, like Brazil, China, etc.

For why some country’s go free market with more immigration I think a lot of that is a native backlash to giving more to poorer communities. In America it’s the blacks and some immigrants. If America wasn’t diverse then I think we probably would be more socialist.

I agree, I assume class unity is a lot easier to accomplish in countries that don't also have ethnic divisions.

On the other hand, the Netherlands and Belgium developed very comprehensive welfare states while riven by pillarization.

My Netherlands history is almost non-existent and my Belgian history is non-existent, but I don't think that Catholics were a notably economically dependent community in the Netherlands, nor Protestants in Belgium?

I don’t know much about the Netherlands but in Belgium the Dutch and French (or Flemmings and Walloons if you prefer their Dr. Seuss names) have had pretty tense relations; pre ww2 the Dutch were poorer and had their language repressed in schools, now they’re richer (and have a a bit of an ethno-nationalist movement). I think they’re all mostly Catholic

Fair counterpoint tbh

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