site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   35022 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

12
Bottom New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Can I take this opportunity to try and convince some mottizens to learn to play golf?

  1. It is a game that you can play until the day that you die.

  2. The benefits to being good at this game are immense. If you are good at golf, other golfers will seek you out as a golf partner.

  3. #1 is especially true for charity tournaments and scrambles, where your ability to produce a winning score gives the person inviting you to play on their team prestige, and the person inviting you is almost certainly wealthy.

  4. The game is an easy route into the rich/upper class parts of society. You can play for very cheap (there are plenty of courses you can play for less $20 or so for 9 holes), but the price goes up from there to infinity.

  5. Even though the price does go to infinity, a $200/round game gets you to top tier courses to play on.

  6. Courtesy is considered a part of the structure of the game. Things like walking in others' "lay" (the path of travel for their ball on a putting green) are things you have to pay attention to.

  7. It's an extremely mental game, you have to slow your thinking down while hitting to be effective. You cannot "force" your way through a game with aggression. The game is more about learning to be graceful than something like basketball, soccer, etc.

I love golf. I was introduced to it at a very young age, luckily. I wish more people played it because I see the benefits large and also accessible.

unrelated: the markdown engine being used on the motte ignores the numbers at the beginning of numbered lists. Interesting.

I don’t care about any of those things. I’m also getting secondhand embarrassment from the obsession with status and recognition evident in your post.

And you can’t convince me that a game with infinite decision making time is more mentally demanding than one that actually requires reflexive genius.

And you can’t convince me that a game with infinite decision making time is more mentally demanding than one that actually requires reflexive genius.

Did I try to?

When you use it as a point in golf’s favor, obviously in comparison to other sports, then yes.

Is this a game for people with compromised shoulders? If I can't do an overhead press without subluxing, will driving stress that failure point again?

I'm not sure but I would really encourage you to try it if you can! Keep in mind there are plenty of people playing golf well into their 80s.

You and @johnfabian have convinced me. I went and made plans to visit a driving range with my dad. We'll see if I can't pick up some basic fluency again.

How did it go?

Haven’t been yet. We did Korean BBQ instead and planned to go one of the next two weekends. I’ll ping y’all with an update when we do!

I'm sure your dad will love it. Playing golf with my dad is one of my favourite things to do, and definitely something we'll both remember as we grow older.

Golf is perfect for business because it's slow enough paced that you can hold a conversation

I just bought new clubs. I golfed in high school, and occasionally over the years, but picked it up again in earnest in 2020, when some of my friends also started playing more. It's really nice to have a 4-some to play with regularly, or a roster of regulars from which to pull the group.

I can play with my dad, which is always a pleasure. I walk with a push cart, and there's very little else that can get me out of bed at dawn on a weekend, or that can make me spend 4 hours outside before noon, or that can make me walk and be on my feet for that much time.

I don't agree about the social/upper class aspect of it, but that's probably because I'm playing with old friends, and we're all poors playing muni courses. Not a lot of fresh blood in my groups.

I don't agree about the social/upper class aspect of it, but that's probably because I'm playing with old friends, and we're all poors playing muni courses. Not a lot of fresh blood in my groups.

I don't mean to say that golf is exclusively an upper class thing. The course I spend most of my time at is $20/round 9 hole course. I just mean that if you wanted a route into that group, that golf could provide it, and the path is well laid out.

Golf's "eliteness" varies from region-to-region. In the UK and Ireland it's very much also a working man's game. In Canada and Australia it gets a little more expensive, but there are still plenty of clubs to join in that $500 to $1,500 price range for a year's membership. In the US it gets even more expensive still, especially down south, but still affordable to a wide range of the population. Then in continental Europe it can be quite expensive and in east Asia it's truly an elite thing

In North America it's much more the country club setting that is elite than the game itself

The thrift store near where my mom lives always has a ton of golf clubs available. I have long considered putting a bag together out of them. What would be the next step? What's the very first thing you need to do in order to start?

Like - when I took up tennis as a kid, I got a buddy, two racquets, and some balls, and we went to a local court when it was deserted and hacked around all day until we started figuring it out. I don't wanna go take up room on the golf course when I have no idea how to hit the ball straight.

Head down to your local driving range, pick a lane off to the side if you can, and just start whacking some balls. You can get enough of the basics to have a good time just by watching a few basic youtube tutorials. Your swing will suck, you'll be slicing and hooking all over the place, etc., but it's a fun experience trying to iterate on each swing to improve. You'll probably want to book an hour or two of lessons at some point before you build any truly terrible habits, but golf is actually a lot easier than it looks, as long as you don't mind being terrible. Your best bet is to book the cheapest hour lesson you can find and/or find a buddy who can give you some tips, spend a couple afternoons at the driving and putting ranges to develop a little bit of technique, then just book a tee time and go golfing. It can be a little stressful when you're first starting out and you feel like everyone's waiting on you, but try not to let that get to you. If you notice someone waiting, offer to let them go ahead of you, or if you don't really enjoy putting and/or want to focus on your drives, just pick your ball up when you get to the green and move onto the next hole. I'd take my time, relax, drink a few beers, and not really worry about keeping score while you're getting the hang of things.

I second and amplify @firmamenti's advice below. A day or two at the driving range learning to thwack the ball squarely and cleanly is the "hacking around until you start to figure it out" of Golf and once you're at point where you can hit the ball in the direction you intend at least semi-reliably, then you can go to a local short course and focus on the rest.

The best recommendation I have is to find a short course, executive course, or par 3 course. It will probably be less pressure, less crowded, and it will focus you on approaching the greens and holing out once you're there. It's also much less time commitment. Nine holes of par 3 golf can be played in under 75 minutes.

Find a cheap golfcourse near you, and go to the driving range (which is where golfers go to practice).

When you get there, you are going to look for the "pro shop" (this is a place that will have stuff for sale like clubs, shirts, etc. You can buy stuff from here, but...I wouldn't, unless you are buying stuff that has the course's branding on it and you want it as a sort of souvenir).

Tell them you want a bucket of balls. There is usually going to be two sizes, either small or large. Get a small one.

They will either hand you a bucket of balls, or a receipt that has a number on it. If they give you a receipt you take this to a machine near the driving range which will dispense the balls into a bucket for you.

In the driving range area, you'll see some sort of markers that show you where each individual person should stand while they hit their balls. Stand between the markers.

There are also tons of videos on youtube that will instruct you on things like how to grip the club (which is pretty important!).

Start with a club like a 9 iron[1]. Hit the ball much, MUCH more gently than you think you should. I'd highly recommend just swinging the club pretty slowly and concentrating on making contact with the ball. Seriously, how hard you hit the ball has way less of an effect than it would seem (this is counterintuitive).

When you're done with this, go back to the club house and sit at the crappy little restaurant they have a drink a beer. Congratulations, now you're a golfer!

Here's an intro golf lesson video you could watch that covers how to grip the club, etc: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1iOa2ZwGhbU

[1]: There are essentially two types of clubs. "Irons" and "Woods", so named because of the materials they used to be made from. Irons are smaller and wedge shaped. They are also shorter. "Woods" (which are no longer made of wood), have a more bulbous appearance, and much longer shafts. The numbers on the club indicate the angle at which they will strike the ball. Irons typically go from 3-9. 3 is the flattest angle while it contacts the ball, and 9 is the sharpest angle. 3 hits the ball the farthest, and 9 hits the ball the highest (and least far). When I say to get a "9 iron", this means the wedge shaped club with a 9 on it, and I'm telling you to hit with this club because it is the most forgiving.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats