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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   31536 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 22, 2023

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The Los Angeles Dodgers, a baseball team are apparently hosting a "pride night" and have invited a group called "The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence" to perform at it.

The "sisters" are of course not sisters at all, but in fact, an anti catholic group of men who dress as nuns and mock catholics.

Originally the Dodgers, a baseball team, after learning that this was essentially an anti-Catholic hate group, uninvited them. However, they recently re-invited them.

Baseball?

What is the fucking point of this? What possible reason does a baseball team have to indicate a sexual preference? And why does this include mocking Catholics?

God this stuff is demoralizing. Is that the point?

Where is your evidence that they are anti-Catholic? You linked to their website, but there is nothing there about Catholicism at all. That is in marked contrast to the websites of actually anti-Catholic groups.

  • -22

You linked to their website, but there is nothing there about Catholicism at all.

...you don't think a panoply of wildly caricatured Catholic nuns is about Catholicism "at all?"

About? At all? Yes. But anti? No, not per se. There are a thousand reasons to dress in drag as a nun other than being anti-Catholic. To criticize certain Catholic doctrines re homosexuality. To push back on political efforts by organized religion (a big deal in 1979). Or just to be ironic, given that nuns are meant to be chaste.

And, btw, one can criticize the Catholic Church (an enormously powerful institution) without criticizing either Catholics or Catholicism.

  • -24

So would you agree that blackface is not "anti-black" per se? Do you believe that caricatures of Jews are not "anti-Semitic" per se?

There are a thousand reasons to dress in drag as a nun other than being anti-Catholic. To criticize certain Catholic doctrines re homosexuality.

Er... maybe we have different ideas about what it means to be "anti-Catholic," but criticizing Catholic doctrines of homosexuality sounds paradigmatically "anti-Catholic" to me. Pushing back on political efforts by the Catholic church seems "anti-Catholic," especially given the Church's long political history.

And, btw, one can criticize the Catholic Church (an enormously powerful institution) without criticizing either Catholics or Catholicism.

Catholics, maybe, but Catholicism? This seems like splitting hairs incredibly fine, to the point of suggesting a motte and bailey doctrine at play. Mockery has long been a highly effective approach to criticism, and criticism is not pro-, it is anti-.

"You can keep your Catholicism, we're just going to level your Church, caricature your symbols, mock your practices--no, we're not anti-Catholic per se, don't be ridiculous!"

That seems implausible to me.

Being Catholic is a choice in a way that being black or ethnic Jewish is not. Hence making fun of blacks or ethnic Jews for being blacks or ethnic Jews is more mean spirited than making fun of Catholics for being Catholics.

There is a difference of quality between, for example, making fun of a person for thinking that the Earth is flat and making fun of a person because he belongs to a certain ethnic group. Both are mean spirited, but the former is at least potentially part of some kind of meaningful debate, whereas the latter leads nowhere except to divisiveness.

  • -15

Being Catholic is a choice in a way that being black or ethnic Jewish is not.

No, it's not. There's a difference but it's much smaller than people imagine. Is being "atheist" a choice? People don't choose their convictions the same way they choose their clothes. I'm a Christian. Sometimes I wished I weren't, because Christianity is very demanding and because it's low status among my peers. But I'm convinced of its truth for the time being, so whether I like it or not I remain Christian.

Choice or not a choice, 'round these parts, atheism is what Robin Hanson calls the "sacred".

So would you agree that blackface is not "anti-black" per se?

Yes. The traditional minstrel shows, as I understand it, depicted black people as stupid or foolish etc. But I don't know that that is true of Al Jolson in The Jazz Singer (though I have never seen the whole movie, so I might be mistaken). Nor it is true of 99% of people who dress in "blackface" nowadays, to play homage to Michael Jackson or whomever.

criticizing Catholic doctrines of homosexuality sounds paradigmatically "anti-Catholic" to me. Pushing back on political efforts by the Catholic church seems "anti-Catholic," especially given the Church's long political history.

Then, you really do have an odd definition of "anti-Catholic." The Mormon Church used to teach that blacks were the cursed descendants of Cain and/or Ham; were those who criticized those doctrines therefore "anti-Mormon"? I don't see how.

Catholics, maybe, but Catholicism? This seems like splitting hairs incredibly fine

Isn't that exactly what Martin Luther did? He criticized the Church, but not the religion.

"You can keep your Catholicism, we're just going to level your Church, caricature your symbols, mock your practices--no, we're not anti-Catholic per se, don't be ridiculous!" That seems implausible to me.

I can see how one might assume that initially. But, if one looked at the website of the organization in question, and saw zero references to Catholicism there, I would think that one would update one's beliefs.

But I don't know that that is true of Al Jolson in The Jazz Singer (though I have never seen the whole movie, so I might be mistaken).

He is respectful all the way through. But I am confused by your confusion on this issue - everyone else in this thread is applying what progressive dogma has demanded for the past decade - if someone in the target group is offended, it's offensive. I don't care enough to go through your history, but I am fairly certain you understood this concept previously.

I have never supported that argument in the least. Among other things, it is contrary to basic principles of freedom of expression.

I didn't say you supported it, I said you understood it.

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Then, you really do have an odd definition of "anti-Catholic." The Mormon Church used to teach that blacks were the cursed descendants of Cain and/or Ham; were those who criticized those doctrines therefore "anti-Mormon"? I don't see how.

It seems like a pretty common belief in the history of Christianity generally, but yes--I have a hard time imagining someone discussing the racist history of Christianity in a way that is pro-Christianity. Perhaps it could be discussed neutrally, as a mere historical curiosity, but you yourself identify these transvestites as doing something to "clearly ridicule Catholicism," and ridicule is not a neutral act. So you're either being disingenuous now, or you are maintaining an untenable distinction between ridiculing something and being "anti-" that thing. And like, if that's really how you're splitting the hair, okay, but it seems a little absurd to me.

Catholics, maybe, but Catholicism? This seems like splitting hairs incredibly fine

Isn't that exactly what Martin Luther did? He criticized the Church, but not the religion.

To the best of my understanding, his maintenance that there even is a difference was itself anti-Catholic, and history (specifically, the existence of Lutheranism as a competitor meme) seems to bear that out. But I'm not a theologian, so.

But, if one looked at the website of the organization in question, and saw zero references to Catholicism there, I would think that one would update one's beliefs.

Except you yourself already allowed that there is not "zero references" to Catholicism at that website, owing to the caricatured Catholic nuns. This substantially increases my suspicion that you are, in fact, just trolling.

I think the interlocutor is disingenuous but extending charity one explanation could be that the interlocutor has the progressive belief that being anti-X means you hate X.

So for example Mormons teach a lot of things that are wrong. In that way, I’m anti-Mormon because I don’t think it is true. But that doesn’t mean I hate Mormons; it just means I think they are wrong.

But how I go about being anti-Mormon could suggest hatred. If I made a public display of mocking their sacred symbols with an intent to distress them then it is reasonable for me to be described as hateful towards them.

This group is clearly hateful toward Catholics.

"have a hard time imagining someone discussing the racist history of Christianity in a way that is pro-Christianity."

Are there really only two possibilities? Being either pro- or anti- ? Eg, I am not pro- religion, but neither am I anti-religion in the manner of Richard Dawkins,et al.

Except you yourself already allowed that there is not "zero references" to Catholicism at that website, owing to the caricatured Catholic nuns

That simply restates the initial claim that the mere fact that they dress as nuns is proof that they are "anti-Catholic." If a group that simply does that, and does not in any other way even mention Catholicism, or the Church, is "anti-Catholic," then with enemies like that, apparently the Church doesn't need friends.

Y’all are fighting over semantics. Taboo the phrase “anti-Catholic.” Which of the following propositions do you believe?

  1. Some of the Sisters’ beliefs are not compatible with Christian theology.

  2. The Sisters are mocking Catholic religious practices.

  3. The Sisters are mocking political positions held mainly by Christians.

  4. The Sisters are mocking political positions held by Catholics, but not most other Christians.

  5. The Sisters would like to diminish the political power of Christians in general.

  6. The Sisters would like to diminish the political power of Catholics more than other Christians.

  7. The Sisters would like to actively persecute Catholics via ostracization or violence.

  8. The mockery as per 3. already rises to the level of active persecution.

@naraburns, what about you?

I think 1, 2, 3 and 5 are true, but the rest are not. The Sisters are attacking Catholicism for its brand and availability more than out of any specific enmity. Thus I’d be more likely to call them anti-Christian than specifically anti-Catholic, even though they are clearly mocking Catholics.

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Well, I happen to work in the free speech arena, specifically re K-12 schools. So I deal a lot with book challenges. And I can tell you that the common claim that challenges to books with LGBTQ themes are the result of homophobia are bullshit, because the vast, vast majority of said books are challenged because they have racy scenes or depictions.

So, my answer is yes.

And, btw, I do not think that asking for actual evidence is shoving camels through needles.

That example isn't of somebody being against homosexuality but not homophobic, though. It's not an example of them being against homosexuality at all, just against books with racy scenes being in schools.

OP asked, "Every time someone's accused of homophobia, are you going to step in and shove a camel through the eye of a needle like this?" The example I gave is about people being accused of homophobia, and my response thereto.

Ah, makes sense. I thought you were replying to the first question.

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