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US military offers immigrants fast track to citizenship in effort to boost recruiting
I have some thoughts about this.
First, this looks suspiciously like textbook "How to lose your empire in five easy steps" guide:
Have your citizens grow fat, lazy and unwilling to risk their lives, especially in far away wars that they see no benefit from anyway
Hire strong and hungry barbarians to serve in the imperial military
Have the barbarians realize they are now doing most of the work holding up the empire together, while not getting commensurate benefits, which go to the fat and lazy citizens instead
Have the barbarians take over the reigns of power
The empire suffers bouts of "bad luck"
The historians write "Decline and fall of the $EMPIRE"
(Side note: since we live in the clown world, I feel compelled to add a disclaimer that the word "barbarian" is used in purely descriptive, not pejorative, meaning - as "somebody who is not part of the imperial culture" - and, in fact, for the purposes of this definition, I am a barbarian myself and many of my friends are Barbarian-Americans)
Second, we have been actively sold the notion that DIE efforts in the military are vital if we want to keep the recruiting targets and the strength of the military. I do not see this idea being empirically confirmed, and what is even worse - I am not seeing anybody even interested in empirically confirming or disproving it. I expect that from the left - you don't seek an empirical confirmation of your religion, you already know it's the true faith. But I would expect people on the right - and I mean all those talking heads, think tanks and high-flying politicians - be interested in figuring out whether DIE actually makes the army stronger - and if not, pushing that fact hard. I don't think I am seeing this. For the most of the 20th century, The Right sleep-walked into giving up almost every major societal institution to The Left's takeover, but I'd expect at least they'd put up some fight for the military. Doesn't seem to be the case. Is it that the only thing that can get people really caring nowdays is when a piss water manufacturer offends them? I'd say the military going woke is a bigger deal than piss water going woke, but I don't see the red tribe treating it this way.
As a Hegelian synthesis of the above, the third thought is that the barbarians should be, at least at the start, the least woke part of the society. Thus, them joining the army in large numbers (provided that indeed happens) should constitute at least a temporary impediment to the further assimilation of the military into the woke collective. However, again, I see very little interest - at least where I could observe it, maybe I'm not looking in correct places? - in the red-tribe thought to exploring this opportunity and building some kind of "welcome wagon" track to ensure these people will join the Right Side and vote accordingly once they become citizens. I am not sure how it should look like, but that's what these "think tanks" are for, aren't they? Do the thinking thing and figure it out. Or at least try - I don't see the trying, really. Am I wrong here?
It has nothing to do with "clown world", you are straight up analogizing the US to older empires that were far more explicitly formulated on a racial or ethnic basis, likewise analogizing illegal immigrants as less-civilized. You are free, of course, to idiosyncratically define "barbarian" as those who don't belong to the culture of the US (insofar as such a thing exists). But let's not pretend that this is some "clown world" shit, and that everyone in a "saner" world would understand that you weren't trying to insult those who are the "barbarians" here. It was an insult long before the advent of the "clown world".
Were they really? As far as I know, Romans didn't have the racial hangups Americans do, and in general most empires were quite tolerant to who they include. That's kinda the point of the empire - to assimilate as much of the other people and territory, and it's easier to do if you don't have weird hangups about skin colors. Of course, xenophobia and kinship existed since forever, but in somewhat different form than now - scientific racism with all its theories is quite recent invention and couldn't exist before the modern era.
It is true that in some empires, there were limitations (including ethnic) on who could be in the topmost levels of power - e.g. among Mongols, only a direct descendant of Temujin could be a ruler - but I think if you go down the pyramid a bit, it was much less restrictive.
So, after I explicitly told you I am not trying to insult, you are saying "no, I know better than you, you actually are!". Of course, you are much better expert on my intentions and thoughts than I am, so I must defer to you. For you personally - please feel free to be as insulted as you like. This post is not for you anyway - you already know what I think, and intend to ignore my actual words about it, so it is a waste of time for you to actually consider anything I say, you can move on directly to being insulted and not bother to actually try to understand what I meant. Too much work, I understand completely.
Rome was kind of the exception, though, most empires had a clearly dominant ethnic group or small number of groups- Greeks in the diadochi states, white English and Scottish people in the British empire, Japanmen in the Japanese empire, ethnic Russians in modern Russia, Shiite Persians in Iran, etc.
I suspect mixing English and Scottish here as if they were the same thing would be met with significant opposition from both sides at many periods, but in Victorian times, excepting the political issues, I don't see how a person of Spanish or French or German descent would be excluded from British society because of their ethnic origin. Of course, it would be hard for them to become Lord or Prime Minister, possibly, but not harder than for an English commoner without necessary connections, I think.
Ethnic Russian in modern Russia do not have any noticeable benefits compared to ethnic Belorussians or ethnic Tuvanians, for example (or ethnic Ukrainians, before the current catastrophe started, or, in fact, ethnic Jews). With all the horrors that the current fascist regime inflicted on Russia, and while Russian culture by itself is pretty xenophobic, the official imperial bureaucracy is pretty ethnicity-blind, and operates on principles which assign very little importance to genetic traits. It helps that there's no racial division in Russia similar to one characteristic to the US, but in general they have completely different issues.
There were two pre-eminent Prime Ministers during the era when the British Empire was at its height. Gladstone was ethnically British. Benjamin Disraeli, as his name suggests, was not. He came from a Sephardi Jewish background, although his father converted to Anglican Christianity (taking the family with him) when Benjamin was a teenager.
Amusingly, the first and second ethnic minority prime ministers (Disraeli and Sunak) as well as the first, second, and third women (Thatcher, May and Truss) were all Conservatives.
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I couldn't speak much to their prejudices but as late as the second century 80-90% of people in the Roman empire were peregrini, or second class citizens with lesser rights. Even the rest of Italy itself had to fight a whole war for their citizenship.
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The use of race or ethnicity as the basis for the higher or highest classes of society was far more explicit in previous empires, that's my point. Telling me that it makes no sense doesn't change that, because people are not always rational.
I offered you charity, actually. I'll repeat myself.
"You are free, of course, to idiosyncratically define "barbarian" as those who don't belong to the culture of the US (insofar as such a thing exists)."
See, here's the thing. I don't think you're lying about not intending insult. I don't think you're trying to "as a black man" me when you say that you are a "Barbarian-American". I'm more than willing to grant your use of the term as you want.
But where I draw a line is in trying to claim that the only reason someone could object to the use of "barbarian" to describe immigrants (illegal if you want that qualifier) is that they are some kind of social progressive. That's precisely the point of invoking "clown world", one is explicitly appealing to a nihilistic viewpoint that is often socially conservative to say the least. The word "barbarian" is understood by non-progressives as an insult, and that should be obvious in the way that people use it. No one appreciates being told, to their face, that they are a barbarian. If you doubt this, go and talk to any of the non-progressive immigrants you are talking about and call them that, see what happens.
Not who you're responding to and from a different country, but I've actually done this and a lot of them responded with satisfied pride. Maybe you don't think that there's anything worthwhile about being a barbarian, but a lot of men actually really like the connotations of being a powerful warrior unbound to a sinking, decadent society. Conan the Barbarian is a famous character from literature and a lot of men viewed him as a kind of role-model. Hell, I know people who actively try to claim the barbarian label for themselves because of how much they esteem it!
It's hardly a refutation if the meaning isn't carried across. Tell them that you mean they are uncivilized, inferior, primitive savages who only babble and don't speak a proper language. They may laugh it off because you are not part of their status hierarchy, but I doubt they'd be so eager to claim that description.
Pop culture use of the word barbarian has created in my mind an image of a tall, muscular, aggressive male who is proficient with melee weapons and is not afraid to use them. I would guess most males would not be offended to be described as, or compared to, such a figure.
And that's great, but that's not how people use it when they trying to describe IRL people in a negative way.
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Well was the meaning carried across in the OP post?
It seems to me that the word "barbarian" usually evokes a different meaning in modern culture, more in spirit of what @FirmWeird suggests. Books, movies, video games seem to have reformed the "barbarian" label into a somewhat high-status designation; a "noble savage" archetype of sorts.
The OP clearly defined how they use barbarian, and I'm fine dealing with idiosyncratic definitions to engage with a post if I wish. It's this justification for why it's necessary to make the idiosyncrasy obvious that I reject.
Certainly possible! But the way in which people use that word does not only reflect the new definition. While it's true you can find inoffensive definitions (DnD 4, to my recollection, lets players be Barbarians as a class, with greater emphasis on the martial prowess part and the spirituality), I do not think my social studies teacher in high school meant it in such a manner when he said the conservative world view was to see the world as divided between the civilized and the barbarians.
Put another way, if the word "barbarian" had come to mean "noble savage", then people who use it as an insult against IRL groups seem more interested in focusing on how ignoble those groups are. My father hates Muslims and I'm fairly certain he does not see anything noble in them when he calls them barbarians.
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I understood the point, but I am not convinced at all that is is actually true.
I didn't ever mention progressives, but everybody knows who are the clowns, right? ;) But it's not exactly what I meant. What I meant is that there are people who are interested in discussing issues, and there are people who are interested in policing other people's behavior, online and offline. That comment was intended to emphasize that I am not interested in the second part, I consider them largely clowns, regardless of their political affiliation (though truth be told, they mostly lean to the left). And if there's a tiny part of them that are not clowns but seriously worry that people may inadvertently and unknowingly cause offense and they would be helpful if they tactfully point it out - this case is not that case. This usage is specific usage in context, and I explained the context and the intent. I do not require your "charity" here - it's not "charity" to not call me a liar and attribute me something that is contrary to my explicitly expressed intent, it's just basic decency, and default expected behavior for which one gets no bonus points.
I talk to them (us) every day, and what I usually find is that they (us) are much less triggered by words - especially taken out of context - than the clown crowd.
When a Nazi talks about 108 countries in a vague manner, both sides are aware that it's a reference to the Jews. Likewise, "clown world" is largely a right-wing word used to condemn liberal/progressive/materialist things.
And I am criticizing your justification. You do not get to handwave away the accuracy of that justification just because you don't want to talk about it.
"Basic decency" is precisely to be charitable. It's the same thing.
You are telling me that you go around and tell those people that they are uncivilized savages who are culturally inferior and don't even speak a proper language, and they don't mind? I'll believe it when I see it.
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I must object to the idea that “policing other people’s behavior” is “mostly lean[ing] to the left.” And that the dominant form of behavior-policing consists of objecting to “triggers.”
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I don’t see how the basis of empire has anything to do with it. The issue is whether or not those making the wheels turn have bought into the Imperial system. You could have an internal coup just as easily (see the fall of Czar Nicholas II) or from immigrants or imperial subjects in the hinterlands.
Increasingly, both at home and abroad, the benefits of supporting the Neoliberal Empire don’t really come to those outside of the elite circles of power. The White working class doesn’t get much of anything from support for the NLE, nor do recent immigrants who get shunted into jobs that don’t pay well. The outer providences don’t see much benefit. And I’d class most of these as barbarians.
Tbf many if these jobs can pay a lot (construction etc). There is a growing middle class of immigrants
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Yes, it is possible that what kills the supposed Empire is its lower-class citizens. But the OP is explicitly about the "barbarians", hence why I'm talking about them. It's a common talking point amongst those who don't like immigrants and/or a "loose" immigration standard.
What counts as a benefit? There are many pieces of technology that drastically improve my QoL that I couldn't or wouldn't own if said empire didn't benefit. I'm about as tangential of an elite as you can get. A farmer may very well consider it a benefit to have an automated tractor that can't be made without an empire that doesn't even think about him.
The latter part isn't true. They wouldn't come to work under an NLE if they didn't think it was worth it.
Spoken like a true Blue Tribe heretic! You retain mostly the same definitions of who is or is not a barbarian, you just tweak them a bit!
I’d count a benefit as something you get as a member and supporter of the empire than you cannot get any other way. So like in America being a citizen gets you the rights listed in the constitution, the right, in other countries, to appeal through the embassy to the government of the USA to gain release from prison. As far as economics, the economy of scale allowed by being part of the empire where ports are rarely closed to American or European goods.
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