This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Musk can probably take Greenblatt’s on this, I expect him to win against the ADL. Kanye was only cancelled after he went full schizo Nation of Islam, ranting-homeless-black-guy-in-Central-Park, you could see how much all the Jewish people in his agency, label, at Yeezy, his public celebrity friends mostly waited until he started talking about Hitler, black Israelites, lost tribe, Jewish doctors poisoning him etc. That was more toxic for Adidas than it would have been for an American brand by itsef. Mel Gibson was cancelled, but he said all the wars in the world were the fault of the Jews, and he also made threatening comments about his then-girlfriend and mother of his child deserving to be ‘raped by a pack of…’ etc, and it was in any case as much his alcoholism (which makes productions hard to insure and is the big reason eg. Johnny Depp has had less work recently) that was the problem as it was anything else.
Musk’s hmmposting doesn’t even remotely rise to that level. His top few tweets today are him praising Walter Isaacson, him looking forward to Lex Fridman’s interview with him, and him praising…uh…Chuck Schumer for some congressional hearing on AI. Plus most of the more powerful Silicon Valley Jews are, if not friendly with him (although some are), not going full death con 3, if you will. Hoffmann criticized him for his Ukraine comments, and Zuck has for backing out of their fight, but neither has said anything about antisemitism. Neither Page nor Brin, who would both have reason to hate Musk (in the former case for their longstanding feud over poaching Sutskever, in the latter for [allegedly] fucking his now-ex wife lol), have called him out on it.
The Times of Israel reports today that “the billionaire’s [Musk’s] Jewish friends” set up a meeting with Netanyahu to put allegations of antisemitism to rest. So either Musk has much better Jewish friends than Kanye, or he’ll probably be fine, unless he goes full Keith Woods, and he’s slowed down his retweets of and engagement with him and other dissident right adjacent people now, and has largely gone back to retweeting Fox boomercon takes on the southern border migrant situation. The board of the ADL are largely comparative nobodies, they can be influenced by bigger voices in the community if Greenblatt becomes a liability.
Currently he hangs on because, as a former Obama staffer, he’s considered well-connected in the present administration.
Really?
I expect the ADL to get some of the best lawyers in existence and also pull out all the stops shaping the landscape, so to speak. It's not that Musk himself is as outrageous as Kanye, of course: the case against him is flimsy. And sure, there are many Jews who'd rather he wins. But I don't think they'll affect the proceedings much; and Netanyahu himself is anti-popular with American progressives. The problem is that that the precedent of some hmmposting tech bro legally defeating the ADL on their very field is undesirable.
I also think you underestimate the damage from engaging with Woods at all. Screenshots go a very long way, and Woods has written a great deal on the JQ.
I'd like to be wrong, of course.
The difference now is that Musk owns a piece of the media. (((New York and California executives))) can't implement a complete blackout on negative stories anymore. News will leak out through Twitter. People on Twitter will keep pointing out that all the hitpieces are written by people with names like Steve Israel or Yonat Shimron. Americans can simply look around and see that Jews are rich and well-connected. The median American probably doesn't know a single Jew personally. If they do, that Jew is probably richer and higher-status than they are. The disproportionate representation of Jews in positions of power is so stark that denying it without full media/information control will nuke the ADL's credibility.
Speak plainly, please. Not that the rest of your comment really leaves a lot of room for doubt, but the triple-parenthesis shibboleth is on par with emojis in terms of clarity and obnoxiousness both.
I get that the triple parenthesis is easily pattern-matched to low-effort and low-class sniping at Jews, but it's an incredibly concise way to convey the idea that [this group] is aligned with stereotypically Jewish interests in a way which conflicts with their nominal mission.
That's legitimately not what I got from it; all I got from it is "Jewish".
More options
Context Copy link
Isn’t that exactly why it’s not Speaking Plainly™? Incredible conciseness is possible because it smuggles in a bunch of assumptions from the rest of the Internet. Leaving those arguments unsaid (and, strategically speaking, easier to defend) is a central example of low-effort.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link