domain:ymeskhout.substack.com
magicalkittycat
1d ago
So how do you feel about a situation like this? https://x.com/pjaicomo/status/1958124476001861948
Do you believe the left would be justified with removing Tom Macdonald for his "the devil is a democrat" speech because the right wing started with saying legal residents don't have protections?
I don't think so because I have principles about free speech that apply regardless of who started it, but if I understand you correctly revenge is a perfectly suitable argument for going against one's words.
4bpp
Now I am become a Helpful, Honest and Harmless Assistant, the destroyer of jobs
1d ago
I don't understand why you are just ignoring the question - it wasn't intended as rhetorical.
Anyhow, my answer to this question is no, but as with many other things (e.g. war crimes, military invasions...) I would rather live in a world where 2+ competing parties do it than in one where only 1 party does it, even if having 0 parties do it is best.
To make it very explicit for the situation at hand: not punishing any researchers for opinions unrelated to their work is best, but punishing researchers of all teams for opinions unrelated to their work is second best. (Not even a distant second best - as a working scientist I honestly think the science community would be much improved if all scientists trying to play at being politicians or "public intellectuals" were summarily kicked out)
magicalkittycat
1d ago
They're all making the same general point so how is it obnoxious? I'm wishing to clarify with different people their views on censorship.
professorgerm
You shall love your crooked neighbor, with your crooked heart
1d ago
If one is saying "just add this line of text to your grants"
Don't forget things like we'll cut your database access if we think you'll find something you shouldn't.
It is easy to make the argument if you completely understate how one side behaved.
So how do you feel about a situation like this? https://x.com/pjaicomo/status/1958124476001861948
Do you believe the left would be justified with removing Tom Macdonald for his "the devil is a democrat" speech because the right wing started with saying legal residents don't have protections?
I think no, but "the other side started it" being a valid reason to betray what you previously said seems like it would apply here too then.
Eupraxia
Of all words spoken, all things read / most true was that which went unsaid
1d ago
· Edited 15hr ago
Has the Trump administration/MAGA at large explicitly denied the possibility of further punishment? Restrictions on left-wing speech are completely aligned with the illiberal right-wing vector, they'd be stupid not to. The question is whether the right's ascendance is complete enough to allow it; the general opinion ITT seems to be that it is not, but we shall see.
Edit: This post quite nicely sums up the actual opinion/driving animus of the new right. Prediction: the final vote count will end up around +20/-10.
Edit 2: Vote count as of Aug 21 2025, 22:11 UTC: +19/-5. Even less pushback than I expected.
atelier
Jimmys: unrustled
1d ago
Yes, until the other side commits in a way that means their violation of trolerance will cost them in power then absolutely. If one side pays no price for punishing those with "bad opinions" they're going to do more of it when they return to power.
Yes, I think this feels odd to people who actually believe that balance and harmony can be brought back to academia by playing within rules and norms that have been finely tuned in these places to achieve plausible deniability and leftist creep simultaneously.
"Why don't we just separate the real world truths these people discover from the political ideology they have a religious-like attachment to?"
The ideology and the institution are now inseparable by design. That's why.
atelier
Jimmys: unrustled
1d ago
He's not being silenced or arrested. What is the old XKCD line, that's not your free speech rights being violated, that's just someone showing you the door.
FCfromSSC
Nuclear levels of sour
1d ago
It's an old joke from a while back; people started speculating that Vance was secretly commenting on the Motte.
the_others
1d ago
That makes sense. I think I lost track of the thread's context at some point.
I don't know much about changes to the NSF and NIH so I won't comment there.
I don't think most of the people making this argument believe Trump is doing it because he specifically wanted to penalise Tao. They're just making the point that Tao did insert himself into the culture war and can't claim he was Just A Normal Guy Doing Research Things until politics found him, that in the "tranquil past" he did not solely "focus on technical or personal aspects" of his own research, teaching, and mentoring, nor did he "leave the broader political debate and activism to others".
I mean the context here is Tao expressing disgust at the Trump administration's supposed imposition of politics upon academia and thus crippling it, something which is difficult to see as anything other than exceptionally hypocritical when Tao himself actively participated in the politicisation of academia (the open letter). The point of bringing it up is not to justify Tao's defunding but to respond to what he wrote about it.
Trump can't do any of the things that require influence inside an institution. All Trump can do is hit with stick. The stick is dumb, the stick is indiscriminate, but it's the stick in his hand. Dr. Tao is justified in complaining about the stick and I applaud him for it. Complaining about the stick is normal. If we don't already consider it a human right to complain about the stick, then we should consider it.
There is a cost to the stick and it is painful. This is unfortunate-- disastrous for some people I know. Of the anecdotes I've heard, such as jdizzler's below, everyone thus far has earned my sympathies. I hope we can look forward to a future without punitive actions against universities or research funding.
I've written before:
The institutions should function in a way that they can manage their own reputation and credibility.
In the end, all the stick can do is make it easier for any individual to assert pursuit of truthisms in the face of others who aim to paint big red targets on their back. Become a wee bit wiser to act a little more like good stewards. The only lesson worth learning is that conservatives will throw the entire package of higher learning into the boiling cauldron if they perceive it as an intolerable, hostile institution. Yes, that includes the Good Parts, because, unfortunately, much is packaged together under a generalized monoculture.
One can argue against the stick, one can hate conservatives or Trump, and they can continue to look down upon one or both. Surrender is not required to respect the stick. There is certainly no risk of counter-revolution in research labs or in the student body.
My main criticism is once the stick is proven real it must be shown to be avoidable. To critics that believe the academy is only good for culture war and who are committed to its destruction, I must insist we complete thorough, competent audit of research funding to save the Good Parts.
netstack
Texas is freedom land
1d ago
Making this comment once is fine.
Two or three times, maybe there's a use case.
Copying and pasting it to this many different people is obnoxious.
RoyGBivensAction
Zensunni Scientologist
1d ago
What I do is go to some online retailer and look specifically for extralong shirts and order a bunch.
The length isn't the issue. It's how big around the shirts are in the waist. Anything that fits the chest/shoulders has a waist big enough for putting away a 12pack a day.
For dress shirts I just have them tailored and always have, there has never been a brand that fit me well.
Yeah, that's what I figured the answer would be.
RoyGBivensAction
Zensunni Scientologist
1d ago
I've also found it very difficult to find nice pants that fit my quads, but aren't cinched up like a sack cloth.
When I bought some new suits a year ago, I had to buy the pants with the biggest possible waist (56 or something) and have them taken in a ridiculous amount, and they still barely fit my thighs.
There are some jeans brands out there that are okay for simultaneously fitting waist/ass/thighs, but those are jeans, not nice pants.
thejdizzler
1d ago
Yes this does seem to be the case with UCLA. I'm complaining about axing the NSF and reducing the NIH budget.
the_others
1d ago
Cut federal grants for diversity, withhold federal grant money from universities that don't toe the line on controlling the woke issues on campus. This is the stance that the admin took with Harvard and has served to keep Hopkins from acting up too much.
I'm confused. Is this not the exact thing that this whole deal with Tao and UCLA is about? The federal government revoking a DEI grant? It may have kept Hopkins from acting up, but it definitely hasn't stopped Tao from kicking up a storm.
I agree with you that this is a decent approach, but to me it seems that it is also more or less what the Trump administration is currently doing.
WhiningCoil
Ghost of Quokka's Future
1d ago
No. The struggle never ends to find shirts that I can actually move my shoulders in, but which aren't also flapping in the breeze around my waist. I've also found it very difficult to find nice pants that fit my quads, but aren't cinched up like a sack cloth. There was a brand or two, but their QC went to shit.
Supah_Schmendrick
1d ago
So you agree with the woke leftists that professors and researchers with "bad opinions" should be punished even if it's not irrelevant to their work?
No. I would be perfectly happy to live in a world where some woke professors and some conservative professors sniped at each other at conferences and from offices across the quad, but otherwise left each other alone. This, in theory, is what tenure and the notion of academic freedom are.*
The Left was not content to live in this world, and across the generations took over the universities, installed their own apparatchiks in administrations, systematically discriminated against disfavored demographics, anathematized and drummed out opposing voices, instituted political litmus tests in hiring and publishing, and created a climate of fear on campuses where the vast majority of students parrot political lines they do not believe in order to avoid social and personal blowback.
If we cannot have an academy run according to our preferred rules - academic freedom, properly understood - then at a minimum we will live according to the woke's rules applied evenhandedly. Perhaps with enough rounds of tit-for-tat, we will be able to reach a new harmonious equilibrium.
RoyGBivensAction
Zensunni Scientologist
1d ago
Over the past ten years, I've watched Progressivism attempt a full-fledged social revolution through methodical weaponization of our society's institutions and centers of value. The revolution they attempted was merciless and insane, caused incalculable harm, and cannot at this date truly be said to have failed. They are on the back foot, momentarily, but they very clearly have learned nothing and will go right back to their revolutionary march the instant they see an opportunity to do so.
Whenever I hear cries of "help help I'm being repressed for my speech" from the left, I think about Masterpiece Cakeshop and the neverending litigation the owner has been put through, the mocking phrase "freeze peach," the national ACLU changing its guidelines for case selection to avoid representing right-wingers (that internal memo from way back in 2018), state chapters of the ACLU refusing to represent right-wing groups, and the infamous xkcd comic about being shown the door. They demonstrated their true principles when they had power and I have no reason to think anything has changed.
I_Smell_Mendacious
1d ago
With respect to lobotomies, I think the medical industry managed to restore quite a bit of public trust with the polio vaccine. Right around the time people were realizing what a terrible idea lobotomies actually were, along came this absolute miracle of modern science. If public opinion swings towards "puberty blockers in children are horrific, actually" and then a universal cure for cancer is developed, I think people will be a lot more willing to overlook the misstep.
Possibly true for someone like Tao, not for someone that does practical work.
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