domain:putanumonit.com
Clementine
3hr ago
I don't think it's a weird way to think of it and you've reminded me of another reason I want a fourth. Three kids feels like it invites weird sibling dynamics with both lots of triangulation and more rigid fixation in the roles of "oldest", "middle", "youngest" whereas larger families I know seem to have more fluidity in the roles.
Although I don't think the rivalries go down at all with 3 or 4 or 5. You're still fighting over what share you get of a limited resource (parental attention). Although I don't think it gets noticeably worse even with more fingers grabbing at the same pie... So maybe I'm wrong, and the natural decrease in resources allotted to each child actually does lower the tension as well? Now I'm second-guessing myself.
TitaniumButterfly
3hr ago
No, that's not right at all. We're not against it because we're worried about an afterlife of torment. We're against it because we consider it evil and wrong to kill babies. Indeed the whole concept that it's wrong to kill babies for the sake of convenience would seem to be a Christian one, since infanticide is otherwise a fairly common thing for humans to engage in.
The reason we're not arguing for middle-ground legislation which bans elective abortions but makes exceptions for rape is that there's zero political will on the other side to accept such a compromise, as you pointed out above. The only way to get any kind of restriction is to get enough power to enforce full restriction, so there's simply no game-theoretic reason we'd even try to do anything less.
pigeonburger
3hr ago
I'm sorry man, that sucks. I didn't even have that traumatic of an experience and I still could not muster to do better for most of my adult life.
I wish I had better advice for you than what you've been probably hearing. I hope you can get over at least the personal aspect of it; as for the world, it tends to be at least a bit kinder to men when we get older.
OracleOutlook
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
3hr ago
For my background - I am the mother of four kids, the oldest of which is a handful and the third of which has some kind of birth defect that currently requires a fake eye and may require a kidney transplant when he's a teen.
When I say the oldest is a handful, I mean that she is seven years old and has been suspended from school twice for running away from school and across a busy street without looking. Let's call her A. I have trouble taking her places - either I take her by herself somewhere or I leave her behind and take the 6, 3, and 2 year old. It is much easier to take the 6, 3, and 2 year old places together than it is to take A by herself. She is a wonderful child 90% of the time, but 10% of the time she gets stuck on a Bad Idea. Literally stuck, she repeats a phrase over and over again, does not listen to anything, only snaps out of it after 20 or so minutes.
A babysitter quit because one of her "stuck ideas" was to get revenge on the sitter for some slight (didn't get the right color dinner plate, if I remember correctly.) Another stuck idea was to get to the check out line first in a busy Home Depot garden center - I had a toddler in a stroller, a 3 year old walking as fast as he could, and couldn't keep up with the lithe unencumbered A. I lost sight of her and wandered around Home Depot until the intercom said she was at the front - she tried to run into the parking lot by herself but an employee stopped her.
She officially has ADHD and I am supposed to take A to a therapist to treat her for this. They don't think she has ODD because she always feels remorse after. I think she might have high-functioning autism because she also has a very black/white way of looking at things. If someone doesn't predict the future she calls it a lie. Ex. "Can we go outside this afternoon?" "Yes, if the weather stays nice." then if it rains and we have to stay inside, "You lied!"
However, when I filled out the PIC-2 questionnaire with full candor and honesty, the Neuropsych wrote in her parent-facing notes: "[OracleOutlook] responded to the measure in such a way that she reported a slightly higher number of symptoms than is typical for A’s age. This is likely due to increased stressors in their life and not true feigning of symptoms; however, results were interpreted with caution." I suspect we are years away from getting a full diagnosis for whatever is going on with A.
I don't write all this to complain or ask for advice. I am trying to get across the experience of having a "bad kid." I don't take the other kids to as many places as I would like. I worry that they are picking up bad adaptations to having a turbulent, violent personality living with them. The next oldest has a fawn response. The younger two like to hit back. It's not great.
I also have a lot of medical costs from the third child with the eye prosthetic. When he was an infant he needed a new conformer every month or so, which is pretty pricey.
This isn't even getting into pregnancy, which is a crap shoot as you noted.
Ultimately life is a risk. The question is, is it worth it? I say yes. Humans throughout history said "yes" through worse difficulties and dangers.
There are many good reasons to be done having kids. Mine is that I want to increase the odds that my husband is alive and well up to the point the youngest turns 18.
One consideration is that having one difficult kid is hard, but I actually think it gets easier when you have more kids who are better behaved. I'm glad I didn't stop at A. If I had, I would assume there was something wrong with my parenting that caused her emotional disturbances. I also get to have "normal kid experiences" with the other kids.
If your complicated kid is the youngest, it's probably easier to manage. I've seen families where they keep going until they have 5-7 kids, hit a kid who needs more attention, and then stop. They seem pretty happy, even when they need to have specialized schooling, medical procedures, etc. It seems easier for an experienced parent to manage, and they also have older kids in middle school/high school who can help out more with chores and babysitting.
While having a really needy or psychotic child can be really bad, the odds of it happening without a clear family history are around the same as getting into a really bad car accident. Going into each pregnancy I worried about it around as much as I worry about getting paralyzed on a road trip, which is to say not overly much - certainly not enough to make me reconsider.
I hope this helps give you more to consider. I'm not trying to persuade you to have another kid, just give a different perspective on the "getting unlucky" phenomenon. I love A. I wish she didn't get "stuck" most days, but I'm glad she's here. I'll do whatever it takes to raise her right.
Also, life is sadder without a 1 year old in the house. It just is. I have a long ways to go before I get a grandkid to play with but I look forward to it already.
Stefferi
Chief Suomiposter
3hr ago
Yeah, like, even if you're a guy gooning to porn, you don't generally want to be reminded of being a guy gooning to porn instead of having sex or doing something not involving being ruled by your gonads.
DelendaEst
3hr ago
My wife has this, and I think it is a major (though certainly not the only) contributor to why she wanted to be one and done (my preference was for more).
There's a distinction being made here between getting everything we (anti-abortionists) want and whether we'd be in favor of legislation which achieves some but not all of that. But we would take the proposed deal in a heartbeat for the same reason that the anti-gun crowd will be happy for every incremental erosion even if it doesn't result in a full ban.
I do want an exception for (legit) maternal health concerns -- that's just weighing one life against another as is difficult but appropriate -- but not for rape. The reason is simple: The rape resulted in a human life. If someone was conceived in rape and is now two years old, you can see why killing the child doesn't make sense. The fault is that of the rapist; ending an innocent third-party human life doesn't improve the situation.
The thought of a woman (or girl) having to go through that pregnancy is indeed horrific. This is what makes rape so terrible! In a sense, the rape is not an event at that point so much as an ongoing process. But I think ending an innocent human life is much worse than nine months of pregnancy.
Many of the same strategy consultants who helped create the position are now in charge of climbing out of it. At least one quote from the end of that article seems closer to honest:
“The Democratic Party is missing that we’re not going to be able to message our way out of these deep problems men are facing, starting with the fact that they know the Democratic Party doesn’t really like or respect them,” said Ross Morales Rocketto, a Democratic strategist who’s also focused on researching men but isn’t involved in the project. “It’s really easy for Republicans to play off the politics of grievance.”
They will likely waste lots of money. The desire to build a network to reach men with a message is understandable. Although, the masculine thing to do is to man up and engage with the Rogan's if they'd like to reach or persuade his audience.
Reaching gamers might not be so strange. Don't political streamers like (Hasan and Destiny are names I know) stream on Twitch.tv-- a game streaming platform? They play video games, entertain, and talk politics. The problem with those guys and others, such as TikTok equivalents, is they are slaves to their fandoms. They can't turn on a dime.
A story I saw last month involved a case of progressive drama for something called the "Unf*ck America" tour. It was supposed to be a handful of trendy, TikTok Zoomer pundits following around Charlie Kirk's Turning Point USA to different college campuses, playing spoiler to Kirk, owning the cons, and so on. The project ended after a meltdown due to the sensitivities and conflict of the progressive stack. I'd guess all the drama surrounding the failed project was positive for each individual TikTok streamer that attended. Drama means dollars. It's pretty terrible for recruitment though, assuming any disengaged young men were paying attention. Which you are probably right that they weren't.
One of those spaces in particlar- video gaming spaces- was the subject of a multi-year culture war in which Democratic party allies circled the wagons against a non-trivial part of the consumer base
Is GamerGate generally known to 18-25 year old gamers? It probably can be ignored, though that doesn't make such a campaign good or justified. If the video game industry is still as left coded as ever, then that's probably common knowledge even if GamerGate is not.
desolation
You shall love your crooked neighbor, with your crooked heart
3hr ago
Thank you for the thought-provoking post, especially one from a perspective we don't get as much around here.
desolation
You shall love your crooked neighbor, with your crooked heart
3hr ago
If that's all it took to order the stork's delivery, I'd take a few hits for the team.
TitaniumButterfly
3hr ago
Alternatively, our awareness of that evil. There's a take about the fruit which is that it was meant for us in the fullness of time, but we jumped the gun and became aware of evil long before we were ready for it.
In any event, as you say, it's a consequence, not a punishment.
pigeonburger
3hr ago
Interesting, this does seem to explain something I've noticed recently in how little purchase the "War on Porn" that the left and mainstream media seem to be trying make into a big thing has. Considering how many guys watch porn, you'd think they'd defend their access to it passionately, but it doesn't seem to get any reaction from the public. And I doubt that it's because the public at large has untangled the media's spin and can tell that it's not something to panic over, the public is rarely that sophisticated.
no you sound weird, haha. Is your background hyper-liberal urbanite or something?
Exactly the opposite. I grew up on a dairy farm, lol.
There's this quip that modern college kids' main problem is that they have never been hit in the face.
I would agree insofar as the kids' problem is that they have never faced adversity. I don't think that being punched in the face is uniquely valuable as a teaching lesson, though. You can learn how to overcome adversity from any number of experiences. And punching each other for fun is, as you said, very stupid.
quiet_NaN
3hr ago
I will second your observation that permanent health damage to the mother as a side effect of pregnancy is not much talked about in my circles. I mean, I occasionally read the Guardian (strictly for the Monday math puzzles), and while they certainly have a bee in their bonnet about women's health specifically, I don't remember encountering any articles on the body horror aspect of pregnancy.
If a medication had these side effects, it would either be banned or come with a big scary warning label, but for some reason, nobody has proposed legislating requiring the penises of fertile men to be tattooed "THIS ORGAN IS KNOWN TO THE SURGEON GENERAL OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE HEALTH PROBLEMS IN WOMEN INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ....".
Tree
3hr ago
no you sound weird, haha. Is your background hyper-liberal urbanite or something? Mine is middle class liberal, small town in western europe.
There's this quip that modern college kids' main problem is that they have never been hit in the face. Although I grant that it does sound pretty stupid to punch each other for seemingly no good reason.
why would one knowingly subject oneself to pain?
Testing your limits, overcoming obstacles, preparing yourself for future fights and challenges, I guess. And in the moment there's the thrill in knowing the stakes are higher than usual. You can play a game for a pack of chewing gum, but it feels more important to play for the right to not get punched.
TheFooder
3hr ago
Are you saying a fool would never admit they were wrong? Why not? Fools do all kinds of things some of which might not be foolish. Hannaia's problem is that he's wrong all the time. Maybe he's a terminal fool and should sit down for a while. Just admitting one was wrong isn't enough of a reason to consider him a meaningful intellect. There are many public intellects I disagree with but still have valuable analysis. Hannania is not one of them.
AnonymousActuary
3hr ago
My wife and I are expecting our third within a matter of weeks. For us part of it was just the joy of larger families and the new sibling relationships you get with each one. I sorta think of it like the formula for an undirected complete graph - with 2 people you have one relationship. With 3, you now have 3 (parents with each other, each parent with child). You have 3 kids right now, so you have 10 edges, adding one more kid will increase that by 50% to 15!
Maybe this is a weird way to think about it, but I feel like families I knew that had 4 kids always had the most fun family dynamics. You don't have the natural rivalries of two, the self-centeredness of one, or the ganging up that can occur with 3.
I don't think your other concerns are trivial though.
The_Nybbler
In the game of roller derby, women aren't just the opposing team; they're the ball.
3hr ago
Except such a regulation might actually drive the work out of California. Which leaves me torn -- do I support the ban because I want to prevent California from impeding AI work, or do I oppose the ban because I'd be happy for California to shoot itself in the dick and drive tech companies out?
TitaniumButterfly
3hr ago
Out of curiosity how did you find this place? I've never really seen anyone link to us from the outside.
AnonymousActuary
3hr ago
Not sure your views on Genesis, but the pain of labor is literally taken in Christianity to be a consequence of evil entering the world.
SSCReader
3hr ago
I heard legends of people doing stuff like playing bloody knuckles or sack tap, but never have known anyone personally who did that.
We used to play a variant of conkers, where when your conker got broken you had to let your opponent take a swing at your knuckles, that used to hurt like hell.
quiet_NaN
3hr ago
Nucleus Genomics just launched their "Nucleus Embryo" product yesterday, if you want to do IVF to get improved odds on the kid's genes. I'm not sure what their process is or how reliable it is, though.
Vaguely relevant (if mostly not actionable): LW on superbabies.
quiet_NaN
3hr ago
You might want to consider giving kidney stones a try sometime. I had a stone twice, and in both cases the pain was so bad that I vomited. The first time, it was over in an hour but the second time, it got stuck on the way to the bladder and required surgical interventions. It is the kind of pain where you start to think what floor the waiting room of the hospital is on, and if it would be enough.
When I had my four wisdom teeth removed and the anesthesia wore of I had pain where Ibuprofen did not cut it, but Metamizole did. With the stone, I went back to the hospital in an ambulance because Metamizole did not cut it, and was on an opiate drip within an hour.
I don't know if second for second, it is worse than getting kicked in the balls though. What is really dragging you down is that it does not stop. Getting kicked in the balls every ten seconds for hours might be as bad or worse, but good luck convincing your IRB and finding volunteers for that one.
Glassnoser
3hr ago
I thought maybe the doctor would explain that her delusion wasn't real. She had been imagining that she could hear her neighbour saying bad things about her through the walls. It had ended by the time she told me about it (maybe because she was on the anti-psychotic), but she told me about this as though it really had happened and no one had ever suggested to her it might not be real.
Honestly, politics encroaching on my fun is so much of a turn off that I think even if the men would agree with the content, the annoyance would make the message radioactive. This is exactly what happened in gamergate. Woke messages in gaming turned a whole lot of apolitical young men into sold out right wingers. I’m just rather amused by the idea that the left is about to spend 20 million dollars to resurrect Gamergate of all things, and guarantee that Gen Alpha is going to see even the center-left as scolds and unbelievably stupid.
It’s just mind-blowing. You lost an entire generation of young men by invading hobby spaces and gaming and other things those young men did for fun and to escape politics and life in general. So the solution is to do it harder?
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