This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
President Biden has announced new executive action (... on twitter):
There are some big, and not always obvious, caveats here. There are very few federal prisoners for simple possession, and most of those are border-related cases where the person will (or would normally) end up deported afterward. Leaving sale, manufacturing, and distribution charges and convictions alone is more tenable at the federal level, where most thresholds are high in practice, but it still leaves a lot of sympathetic cases in prison or with serious criminal records for what is often a bullshit crime. Even if state jurisdictions follow along, lower state and local thresholds for distribution or intent-to-distribute will have far less impact than the eye-popping numbers pot legalization advocates bring. Many of the jurisdictions not already seriously considering decriminalizing pot offenses at the state level are unlikely to find this Call On Governors very persuasive; while there is a crossover component, some Red Tribe-leaning states may consider the political nature of this call legitimate cause to adopt wait-and-see approaches at best. The overlap between pot and general soft-on-crime aren't perfect, but it's not non-existent, either.
And it's hard not to see the timing as political: this was a campaign promise, held off for over a year and a half. While a lot of friendly reporting points to requests from other politicians, that doesn't actually make it less political, even were it not their midterm election season.
On the other hand, there's limits to how much I can complain about someone doing a good thing for selfish reasons. I am not a fan of marijuana, and marijuana legalization advocates tend to get incredibly unrealistic promises for the benefits and ignorance of the costs of legalization or decriminalization. It's hard to see the drug as safer than vaping, for another matter the FDA has crusaded against recently, even for optimistic reads on the risks of schizophrenia or lung disease. But it's also very hard to consider most federal or state extant rules good on their own merits, or even legitimate uses of government power. And, notably, this route has been available to other Presidents, who had similar political benefits (and risks), and who did not take it.
((If it actually happens; announcing a policy on Twitter does not implement it. It's quite possible that the actual real-world version runs into stumbling blocks -- a Biden pardon series is unlikely to face the sort of legal friction a Trump one would, but there's no shortage of unsympathetic prisoners and very unpleasant border cases. Bulk pardons aren't unprecedented, but they may be rough in practice here. And this would easily dwarf those past examples; this isn't quite nullifying a federal statute, but it's a lot closer than anything done in the past.))
The other interesting side is this taking so long to happen. There's a lot of good reasons to be skeptical of policy polls on the matter, but support for decriminalization is one matter that's replicated fairly well in actual referendums and ballots. This is a place where federal legislative action is plausible, and also largely unexplored entirely. The actual FDA rulemaking is a charlie foxtrot waiting to happen -- emphasis on the wait, as I'm skeptical it goes anywhere in a year -- but the power of the pardon is broad. It's understandable that major politicians are less likely to have inhaled than the average American, but it's not like President Obama or Clinton were strong pot advocates, and in turn Biden's historically been almost as skeptical as Trump was.
This is a bad idea, and I will explain why its a bad idea even if you think marijuana should be legal:
None of these people are actually in prison because they had weed on them. They are hardened criminals, who also happened to have weed on them and that was the easiest thing to prove, so that is what the AG who wanted to preserve his 100% conviction rate went with.
According to CNN, "Officials said there are currently no Americans serving prison time solely on federal simple marijuana possession charges." So, no one is actually being released because of the pardons.
More options
Context Copy link
This seems plausible, but can you provide any evidence for this claim?
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/publications/culpeper%20and%20johnson%20foundations'%20report%20on%20substance%20abuse%20in%20prison%2C%201998.pdf
"it appears that few inmates could be in prison or jail solely for possession of small amounts of marijuana. Indeed the number is likely so small that it would have little or no impact on overcrowding "
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/behind-bars-ii-substance-abuse-and-americas-prison-population
Of all drug defendants only 2.3 percent—186 people—received sentences for simple possession, and of the 174 for whom sentencing information is known, just 63 actually served time behind bars.
https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/2021-guidelines-manual-annotated
Those are the sentencing guidelines.
Here are some illustrative examples you can use the guidelines to doublecheck:
Simple possession of marijuana (say you are caught with a big ole bag of weed) is, at most, a level 4 offense, carrying a sentence of 0-6 months for first time offenders and up to a year for those with a criminal history. Acceptance of responsibility (aka plea deal) would reduce the offense to a level 2. At level 2 anyone without a Class VI criminal history has a recommendation of 0-6 months, and a VI would be 1-7 months.
The next level of possession would be if you had 2-4 kilograms of marijuana. That is a Lvl 10 offense. So 6-12 months for a first time offender, 24-30 for a Class VI criminal. LVL 10s are allowed to be pled down to lvl 8, which would make it 0-6 months for a first time offender. With 8 pounds of weed! That's enough for Havard's whole student body to get high for the weekend!
The fact that only 2.3 percent of all drug defendants received sentences for simple possession in no way supports your claim that those pardoned are "hardened criminals," because that data says nothing about what other crimes those people might or might not have committed.
Of course, there are certainly people who are convicted of both marijuana possession and, say, robbery. But:
those are not the people you are talking about; you explicitly claim that "They are hardened criminals, who also happened to have weed on them and that was the easiest thing to prove, so that is what the AG who wanted to preserve his 100% conviction rate went with." That means you are saying that they were not convicted of additional crimes.
If someone was indeed convicted of both possession and robbery or other serious crime, pardoning their possession offense does not get them out of jail; they still have to serve the sentence for robbery.
Nor do your references to the sentencing guidelines say anything about what other crimes these people did or did not commit.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
in advance, probably not. check the outcomes for the people who've been pardoned, over the next decade or so. If the above is correct, you'll see very bad outcomes relative to the general population.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It has the critical advantage of being very easy to prove (or frame, for that matter).
More options
Context Copy link
Well that sure points towards deeper problems with the system that still doesn't justify keeping marijuana illegal just to act as a crutch for overly cautious prosecutors.
You can maybe convince me that many guys are in prison for worse crimes than marijuana possession even if that's all it says on their sentencing form. That's not going to make me conclude that marijuana legalization is 'a bad idea' unless keeping it illegal it is literally the only and/or least harmful way to keep these guys from causing further problems for society.
It wouldn't completely justify marijuana laws, but it should decrease your estimate of the harm caused by marijuana laws.
More options
Context Copy link
If you think public servants being lazy and covering their asses points towards deeper problems with the system you're never gonna like any system.
This is reminds me of Japan which has very little crime and very high convictions rates. A lot of crimes are difficult to prove in the American system but possession of drugs or guns are easy to prove.
Chicago on hot weekends use to keep evidence on small time drug dealing so they could pick up people if they thought violence was going to occur. Pick them up on a Friday and drop the charges on Monday.
I don’t love these games for civil liberty reasons but they do have effectiveness.
More options
Context Copy link
CORRECT, for most definitions of 'system.'
But this happens to be a system I have extensive personal experience with (at the state level) so I'm particularly averse to allowing the abuses of regular, peaceful people to continue in the name of protecting us from the relatively small number of serious offenders.
Prosecutor's offices will adapt to the new circumstances and maybe we'll have a slightly better equilibrium at the end of it.
If Marijuana criminalization is necessary as a tool to enforce other laws (which I do not grant) then maybe we just openly say that rather than maintain a farcical legal regime.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link