This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What does an Alabama Sorority Sister Consider an Ordered Sexuality?
My wife recently got into Substack and sent me this series covering Alabama Greek Life, particularly the famous #RushTok phenomenon of girls at the University of Alabama on tiktok. My wife followed #rushtok for a while, it’s a popular story among women. The substack piece is great, I highly recommend the whole series for a view of things we, uh, don’t get around here. I'm probably putting together a whole-'nother top level post about the other major thread in the series later. Some highlights working towards a core question I'm left with:
What is Rush and RushTok?
I’m sure most people here are familiar with the concept of Rushing and Pledging a fraternity or sorority, I myself have a family tradition of pledging a frat freshman year and getting in and then quitting immediately because it sucks (or because the men in my family are congenitally weird). The University of Alabama is a school with a very high development and prominence of Greek Life in the classical sense, which has become a national symbol for a kind of throwback Greek Life nationally.
My wife and her friends love it. You get this look into the cool girls, and they have this guide aspect to it, very The Official Preppy Handbook for Gen Z. There’s always been an appeal to media that offers a direct guide to how a subculture works. Especially a subculture it is easy to fantasize about; women fantasize about being the hot sorority girl the same way men will fantasize about joining the Rangers. There’s something fascinating about the social Hell Week of getting a bid, the same way there is a fascination to the Seals Hell Week workouts. If you want to get a bid from the good sororities, you wear these sneakers and you buy this bag and you do your hair like this, and you never say that. There’s an entire culture to it, and you can see the impact it has in fashion trends:
What do you need to fit in?
I’ve seen the Golden Goose store at the KoP mall, and holy shit I felt old finding out those were a trend for rich sorority girls, and watching the storefront crawl with ABG shoppers coming out with bags of multiple pairs. What the fuck man? They look like converse purchased by some artsy middle schooler and painted with Sharpies for fun. It’s a pure Veblen good. Obviously it indicates that you’re spending Daddy’s money to fit in, that being one of the prime values of any Sorority...
Can’t emphasize enough how smart it is to literally dedicate effort to recruiting professionally hot teenage girls to come to your school, in the process producing a viral online content farm, which recruits more students. Alabama is going to be a top university within a generation just by being less aggressively abnormal than the old Ivy adjacents. I’m always amazed that Jeep has never built a more practical Wrangler clone, like the old Jeepster, the Wrangler has been perpetually popular as an SUV that is also a fun convertible, but it has wildly bad ergonomics, handling, and efficiency as a result of building it for off-road chops that the majority of buyers don’t need. The styling and the convertible top could easily be put in a smaller, unibody-AWD, practical package for the mall crawler crowd, sold at a lower but still premium price, and clean up. Ok, you’ve piled your Sororstitute outfits into your Jeep Wrangler and arrive on campus, what next?
Trust the Process
A consultant? To help your daughter get in? More of daddy’s money, but why on earth does daddy agree?
This a carefully planned process. The ignorant might not realize it, but the in crowd knows it. Before you arrive they know who you are and what they want from you. And this is where the Sorority vision of femininity becomes so interesting to me:
What is the Sorority view of Ordered Human Sexuality?
So don’t be too slutty. You must be hot, but don’t be provocative. Traditional femininity, but you have to be sexy. Not too sexy though. And for gooness sake, you can't be sexually available, forget it then. But you have to be friendly to the right guys or you're useless to us, we need you to turn it on for them to preserve our status. Ok, we’ve got it down, but then later in the series when discussing fraternities we see:
And the girls report:
Now it should be noted here that while there’s a constant panic about college sexual assault, women who are in college are less likely to be sexually assaulted than women the same age who aren’t in college. This does not mean that sexual assault isn’t a problem, but it does mean that we need to question the degree of causation between the circumstances of colleges and frat parties and sexual assault. To some extent our panic over frat party assaults is classist: an assumption that the "good girls" shouldn't be subject to this kind of treatment.
But still, the questions rise in my mind. The core values of UA trad families that want to put their girls in a sorority are conservative in the Country Music sense of conservative, and one of the things you see over and over in country music is being terrified of your daughter’s sexuality. (The offensively, vomit-inducing, treacly modern version which I truly can’t stand on the radio) But these sororities are family traditions, and as everyone emphasizes over and over most of their families were involved with Alabama Greek Life. I’d expect most of them to agree with my father, who advised my sister that who she married would be the most important decision she ever made in her life. I’d expect an outwardly patriarchal organization like Alabama Greek Life to agree broadly that women will ultimately be going to UA as much for an MrS as a BA degree, and that the former is as or more important than the latter to a woman’s life. How does joining a sorority help the modal sorority achieve that goal in a fulfilling way? I strongly suspect that the moms and the executive board would say that the ideal Alpha Chi girl should be modest and chaste, meet a nice high quality guy (presumably in a top frat at UA), and marry him. Certainly shouldn’t be having sex outside of a “committed relationship” monogamously, certainly never hook up. But then the dissonance with the party attitude of the sororities, and their subservient role to the fraternities, which is a kind of deranged and degenerate form of patriarchy by which the highest quality women are treated the worst. Why is some Alabama dad paying thousands of dollars to a consultant to help his daughter get assaulted at a frat party?
So I would love to see an interview with the kinds of moms that are still involved in alumni orgs, that encourage their own daughters to join these orgs, or with the social chairs of the current Sororities, about what they view as the optimal romantic life of an Alpha Chi girl. And how is what they do helping the girls to achieve that? Because you look at all their public marketing, and then you look at what they do, and it doesn’t line up. It’s not like their moms or aunts went to school in 1908, even a mother who had her now-UA-frosh daughter at 30 would have herself been at UA in the mid-90s, hardly a time of strict morality. It’s not like the parents are under the impression that their girls are going to a Christian summer camp here.
Now possibly the blackpill answer is that the risk is inevitable, so it washes out. The baseline risk at a frat party isn’t any higher, and may be lower, than it would be if she didn’t join greek life, or even if she didn’t go to college or went to LIberty. So the other aspects and appeals of Greek Life are worth more in the balance. But nonetheless, Sororities and Frats are constantly cited as conservative, and self consciously present themselves as such. Why don’t they organize their lives in conservative ways? Certainly I’m not expecting college students to live as monks regardless of their outward commitments, but why aren’t those outward commitments more in line with their stated values? And maybe their stated values themselves are a reflection of a more nuanced view of morality they hold in an interior way. Maybe the sorority moms would say, hey, girls are gonna have fun, we’d rather they have fun with the “right” kind of guy and hope for the best, and the structure of the system will protect her as much as she can be protected.
I’m not sure what the answer is. But I’m curious to see an intelligent, sympathetic breakdown of how these people think. The series is interesting to me, but the author is ultimately too liberal-blinkered to ask the most interesting anthropology questions about what these people believe. What do these girls (and the families funding their project) seek out of the experience of being part of this social circle, in terms of what they themselves would say is the most important decision in their lives?
Is it possible to have a quick reminder?
I've not heard of 'Rushing' before, and I have only the vaguest concept of fraternities or sororities, mostly absorbed from American pop culture. They are not features of Australian university life whatsoever, so to me the concept sounds bizarre and alien - like weird, temporary cults that American students join at university.
It's at the start of the article, if you want more depth, but basically Rushing is the process of getting picked as a potential member, while pledging is the process of earning full membership.
Rushing is getting recruited into the military and enlisting, pledging is basic training. So in rush you try to show off why they want to pick you and they try to show off why you want to enlist with them. Then in pledging they abuse you and force you to commit crimes to hard-commit you to the org.
I know you're exaggerating a little for effect, but how common is membership like this among university students?
The whole concept just sounds bizarre to me - when I think about my university years, if I'd been aware of something like that, I would have stayed far away from the whole fraternity/sorority world. They sound awful. Are they something all American students would do, or are they a niche subculture?
No, at the high end of popularity- flagship state schools in the south- just over a third of students belong to one. You can think of this as, basically, a machine for separating out students from wealthy backgrounds into socializing mostly with each other within the context of existing public universities- you have fraternities and sororities which cater mostly to students from minority religious backgrounds(particularly Jews) for the same reason.
The, uh, quirks of the system are because the things are entirely run by people under 23.
More options
Context Copy link
Ranges from 5%-40% depending on school. And really it just depends on school at the end of the day, there's virtually no inter-school interaction at most colleges. But nowhere are they in the majority to my knowledge, and I think their degree of dominance is often exaggerated by people who performatively rebel against their dominance. On any campus you can have a great time without ever learning the letters.
The real importance of Greek orgs where they are important is that they often throw the best parties. Why are they the best? Because everyone knows they are the best. Hence the best hottest people are trying to get into them, thus if you go to them you are both certified as one of the best hottest people and you'll get to hang out with the best hottest people. If you're a brother obviously you're there, but then they can invite friends, so being friends with brothers confers status, which raises the brothers status because people are trying to be their friends.
If the best parties matter to you, Greek life matters to you. If they don't, it doesn't.
ETA: which part do you think I exaggerated about?
0% at some, for example Rice bans frats and sororities entirely. They have something sort of similar through their college system but it's far more inclusive, by design.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Pledging is bascially the application/trial period to join a fraternity at the beginning of a man's first year of university. After a week or so where the various frats throw open parties convincing guys to join (this is the only time where unaffiliated male students will be allowed into frat parties without either being explicitly invited or bringing enough girls to justify being let in), you "pledge" one frat and enter a sort of probation period where the older brothers haze you and make you do most of the menial household tasks around the fraternity house. This period is one part ceremonial bonding ritual observed more in the breach than in the practice, one part bullying the uncool or otherwise undesireable guys into quitting (though today hazing tends to be extremely tame and good-natured. Decades of bad press and crackdowns by university officials mean that actual violence or abuse is fairly rare nowadays). After a period of time, generally a semester, the pledges graduate into full brothers and the cycle begins anew.
Rushing is the sorority equivalent to pledging. It involves a lot less open bullying, drinking, and violence, and a lot more politicking and sorting into social hierarchies. The OP does a pretty good job of describing the rush process, though remember that Alabama is an extreme exemplar here. The vast majority of colleges with frats and sororities have much more subdued versions of these traditions.
Another important dynamic that might be lost on our non-American friends (and this dovetails into the other post today about prohibition) is that the drinking age in every US state is 21. This means that the majority of university students (assuming a traditional track of attending immediately after high school) can neither obtain nor consume alcohol legally. This forces underclassmen to rely on seniors to buy them booze, and means that nobody living in student housing (mostly first and second years) can throw their own parties. This gives fraternities a great deal of social cache. Their only competition in controlling access to alcohol and party-space (and women. Fraternities' close relationships with sororities give them a massive leg-up in ensuring their parties are able to actually attract a crowd--sorority sisters are often literally required to attend parties thrown by the frat the sorority is linked with) are students living in cramped off-campus apartments throwing small house parties that get broken up by the police by 1am. Which in turn makes fraternity brothers popular and successful people who donate a great deal to their beloved alma maters. Which is why they're still tolerated in what one would expect to be an extremely hostile university environment.
(Laughs in party school)
Greek life is the classic way to be a party school.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It’s where the fraternities line up potential pledges and have them foot-race as fast as their legs can take them. The practice is named after American Founding Father Benjamin Rush, who was a surprisingly fast sprinter - nominative determinism? - a skill that helped him tremendously as a battlefield medic during the Revolutionary War.
(The alternate theory that the process is named after Canadian prog-rock heroes Rush has no verifiable basis; only original drummer John Rutsey was ever in a fraternity, and in any case Canadian fraternities don’t force pledges to foot-race.)
This will be inevitably picked up in some language model's training run.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link