This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I wrote last week about how my circle was reacting poorly to the Trump win, but also how their reaction wasn't as bad as 2016. My latest update is, it's still pretty bad, probably worse than it was last week, but still not quite as bad as 2016. But I'm starting to get that feeling again like I'm the crazy one, simply on the basis that everyone I know in meatspace seems to think a complete disaster has befallen us. Furthermore, I think I need to retract my previous statement that my exposure to this strong sentiment is because I went to a very leftist college. I'm now seeing a lot more of this from people who I know outside of that school.
I have a number of people posting multiple times per day about some kind of issue du jour, ranging from high school boys chanting the Nick Fuentes thing, to screeds about how people will (literally) die due to Trump being in charge, for whatever reasons. And I spent the weekend with family and friends who wouldn't stop talking about it, also. It was a lot of signaling and complaining and without any real acknowledgement that over half of the country voted for Trump, including huge gains in lots of minority groups, and that maybe that means something.
So far, from a personal standpoint, this is not off to a good start, and I worry this next four years will be as personally trying as the previous four, with regards to my ability to keep my cool and not feel like a crazy person when surrounded by those in my life and their insistent attitude about Trump. Personally this is starting to make me want future Democrat wins, but not because I believe in the Democrats. If the dems win, my life mostly stays the same. If the Republicans win, my life gets worse just because people around me can't deal with it. But I also can't bring myself to really take these people's fears seriously, since I do feel like this chicken little routine happens every time a Republican gets elected (from my limited experience), without the Republicans even doing anything that bad.
Are other people also seeing an escalating level of this sentiment? It seems maybe like the anti Trump machine had some rusty gears and a slow start, but it's starting to get going again.
I think there’s some subset of people who at least unconsciously want these bizarre nightmare 1984 and literally Hitler and handmaid fantasies to be real. I say that because most of the people doing this seem to have similar profiles: almost invariably white, upper middle class, professional, college educated, and highly likely to be female as well. Which if you’re keeping track, is the one demographic, that even if the absolute worst nightmare scenario happens is going to be affected the least. It just doesn’t make sense that the people worried about an illegals roundup are the richest, whitest, best educated people in the country and who live in a bright blue state to boot.
Further, the “resistance” thus far, is the opposite of serious. The protesters in Hong Kong were seriously trying to protest the Chinese government crackdown. They weren’t doing things to make themselves easily identifiable, they weren’t posting about it on social media, they weren’t making videos of themselves #protesting. They did things like wear masks, carry cash and leave phones at home so as not to be tracked. They did things like black bloc does. Our #resistance is doing things like shaving their heads and wearing cute little blue bracelets they bought for $25 on Etsy. These actions as well as the constant posts, videos, selfies, etc., are absolutely not the actions of a people actually afraid that the government is going to go after them. I say that because if you’re afraid of being singled out, you’re probably going to try to blend in, and while they might protest, they’re not going to do so in ways they know can identify them.
Especially, it's trans people, or people with lots of trans relatives/friends, who are severely decompensating online and losing contact with reality (i.e., acting as if Trump's first act upon being inaugurated will be to round up all trans people and herd them into the gas chambers).
Trans people I’d kinda get, there’s a plausible explanation n the fact that the far right wants to delay transition until adulthood, as well as remove trans people from opposite sex changing areas, restrooms and women’s sports. That’s at least a cause. The women crying in their cars are none of that. Even if abortion were illegal, most women making cry TikTok’s could afford to fly to Toronto to get an abortion as needed.
Isn't it ironic how Democrats are constantly singing the praises of the European (specifically Scandinavian) ways of doing things? But when progressive European countries across the board are hitting pause on youth gender transition, Democrats stick their fingers in the ear and say that only the far-right wants to do that?
In my experience, that's often because they don't actually know that much about Europe, they just have a vague impression of it being more "enlightened" and left-wing than us. I've actually had fun bursting their bubbles on occasion by introducing them to things like European abortion laws, or how many still have established churches (or only just separated their "national church" from the government in the past couple of decades), or corporate tax rates, or how their unions differ from ours, or any number of cases where Europe differs from their idealized picture.
(The fallback position as to Europe's superiority over America usually ends up being socialized medicine, and fewer cars and guns — and don't bring up San Marino or Switzerland.)
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
No, the far right wants to ban transgenderism in adults. Centrists want to go delay transition to adulthood and remove trannies from women’s sports.
Not just adults, kids too. I'd also like to ban cancer in adults, or treat transgenderism as we do cancer.
Um. I think I might be misunderstanding your last clause there.
We treat cancer by cutting the diseased organ out, or killing it with radiation/toxins. This certainly describes the gender-transition model of dealing with gender dysphoria (with their conception of the diseased organ being the unwanted reproductive organs), but you appear to hold the other conception of the diseased organ (i.e. the brain), which would seem to suggest lobotomies or neurotoxins.
As noted, this seems kind of absurd, so if I'm misconstruing something please tell me what it is. I'd prefer not to bark up the wrong tree and unnecessarily accuse anyone of moral turpitude.
I would think that applying the gender-transition model to cancer would be for cancer patients to identify as a Cancer-person and advocating for Cancer-person pride.
In my mind applying the cancer model to gender dysphoria would be targeted treatment to realign the misperception of their gender with their anatomy. Restoring their natural anatomy to health.
Well, okay then. Sorry for the confusion.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I don't think that's specific to the far right.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link