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Has anyone had a Starbucks recently?
Back when I was in school the library had a Starbucks built into the entrance that was open 24/7 and always had a line out the door. It was like a license to print money. More than once in the middle of the night I would go with whichever girl was the flavor of the week when we were studying for whatever it might be, and I'd order something intentionally absurd for us both like a strawberry Frappuccino.
But mostly, I really, really try to avoid Starbucks. And today I was reminded why. I stopped by my local pastry shop not knowing they'd changed their hours and now don't open until 9, but fortunately it was like 8:53 when I showed up so I only had a few minutes to kill. On the radio, they mentioned that Starbucks was having some kind of nationwide protest about a rule-change, something to do with everyone having to wear plain black shirts or something to that effect. I thought, oh, there's a Starbucks a few hundred feet away in this parking lot. Why don't I, just for fun and for a bit of an anthropological survey, go and ask them about it for myself?
Holy shit it was bleak. The woman at the counter that greeted me was almost comically short and fat, like a cube. Her hair was greasy, thin, obviously unwashed, and would've benefited from a cut some months ago. She was curt, bordering on rude, asking what I wanted. When I told her I wasn't necessarily interested in ordering anything, but was very much interested in her thoughts on the 'strike' et al she gave me a stare that made a cow look intelligent. When she told me she didn't have anything to say about that, and would I like to order anything, I asked for a glass of water and if she'd mind if asked one of her colleagues instead. She directed me to the corporate number. She reitterated her lack of thought on the topic. She told me that Starbucks no longer offers 'free' water. She was totally, absolutely professional throughout the interaction other than the obvious current of 'fuck you' that permeated strongly.
What's the point of this post? I don't really know. My pastries from the actual coffee shop turned out to be great, everyone liked them. I haven't been giving Starbucks any money and will continue not to. I thought Starbucks was a shit-ass place full of soulless NPC's and I still do. Why did I go in there? What is the point of being curious when you already know what you're going to find? Welcome to Starbucks - we hate you and we're on strike because uniforms are oppression.
Re: the not allowed to give out a cup of water, it’s likely related to some general ups and downs in their loitering policy drama over the past several years.
I don’t recall the ins and outs and may be getting timing wrong but basically around George Floyd, there was a lot of bad optics around not letting people loiter or use the bathroom without being paying customers. This was seen as racism and bad. But meanwhile there were a lot of people taking advantage of such open doors policies, and basically loitering junkies we’re driving away customers.
Not giving out free water is perfectly reasonable way to discourage freeloading loiterers who might disrupt the appeal of the space for paying customers.
If you let that policy happen via discretion you risk the cancel mob highlighting perceived inequity, and wage workers don’t want to get plastered on the internet for that shit.
Blanket ban is much safer for the establishment as well as the workers to have blanket policies like this.
15 years ago I worked at a fast food restaurant right next to a college bar and we had similar policy because otherwise drink college kids who spent no money filled up the place and interfered with the business
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This is interesting. It's well-written in the sense that it flows and sticks the landing, even though I agree with almost everyone who has commented that your behavior (and subsequent dismissal of this woman) were oddly tone-deaf to the way polite society works. And slightly, to my archaic worldview, ungallant. But that point has been made repeatedly--to the point where you invoked Satan no less--so I'll change tack.
In Japan I generally avoid Starbucks because I don't enjoy their simple black coffee, and I am not interested in all the milkshake-type drinks which are, at least here, considerably more popular, as well as time-consuming to make. Thus I have found myself waiting in line for up to 15 minutes just to have hot beverage poured from urn to cup because the three people in front of me ordered the dessert drinks. Also, although I haven't been to a US convenience store in years, here at least the Family Mart coffee machine grinds the beans as you're standing there, and that's like a minute wait tops. This is a tedious preface to my point that, at least here, Starbucks workers are efficient, on-task, and professional--which is to say very good at customer-facing friendliness. Also often young and pretty (the males and the females). Yet I cannot imagine how I could ask your question without creating a shit storm of awkwardness. Unfortunately awkwardness is routinely expected from foreigners (in a society built around avoiding awkwardness) so anyone brave and reckless enough to interact with a foreigner would probably be unfazed. This wouldn't be a good thing, as they'd probably be equally unfazed if I suddenly took off my shirt in the shop and began applying deodorant to my armpits. "Foreigners, what can you expect?" etc. So I am probably routinely viewed, despite my best efforts, as a relatively tame chimpanzee by many. And chimps can suddenly lose it, as we know.
Your posts sometimes seem exasperated--with people, with the Motte. Because of this (in addition to your username) I have assumed you are drinking booze while posting. But maybe it's something else. General misanthropy? I'm not trying intentionally to be satanic.
I feel heard. So, thank you. Without obsequiousness that's just a genuine sigh of relief.
Are we talking about the same thing? I was uncouth, ungallant, imperious by imposing myself on that poor, unsuspecting Starbucks employee. I might as well have taken my shirt off and started swinging it around like 'Call me George, George of the jungle'.
But I'm not as exasperated with people or the Motte (although, gosh, I do feel like this used to be the place to get the news) as I am with the reality that the whole exchange was so...whatever it was. Gosh. Now I do feel bad for being so anthropologically autistic even if she wouldn't give me a cup of water
That Starbucks employee may have been a rude, incompetent blob. I wasn't there, and the nuances of the interaction get lost. Perhaps there is some element missing in your relation of the conversation that neither I nor others have grasped. It doesn't matter that much.
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Why would you expect a random employee to answer you honestly on a question that is obviously contentious with her employer and may get her fired if you are recording her or from management? Your "just for fun" is her job, and for a working class person can be very precarious. Retail workers are not dancing monkeys, especially when you weren't even going to buy anything or tip her!
I'd say the fact she treated you professionally is more than you had any right to expect, given your approach. She may well have looked at you and was judging YOUR intelligence for asking such a question right there in the open.
Welcome to Starbucks - we hate people who ask questions that might get us fired (and aren't even going to tip), seems like an entirely reasonable position.
Honestly you come off as being very entitled here. Did you even consider that if she did answer you and was reported she might get in trouble or lose her job, or that she might worry about that? Would that be worth sating your desire for an anthropological survey, with absolutely nothing to gain for her? Heck anthropologists at least brought shiny beads to gift their subjects!
As for Starbucks itself, it's overpriced but the benefit is as with all chains that you know roughly what you are going to get. The little Ethiopian coffee shop down the road is probably better, but may not have such a broad selection, is much more variable and harder to find.
LMAO how should she have treated me if not 'professionally'? If that was more than I had any right to expect, what should have been expected?
You weren’t even a real customer, you didn’t buy anything! She could’ve told you to piss off and make space for paying customers. You could have been a journalist (honestly this is much more likely than the reality of you just being some guy who was curious), and if she was quoted or her store was mentioned in an article she could get in trouble with corporate. And who really wants to talk to a journalist at work anyway? Especially right at the start of a shift.
My opinion of the average current-year-plus-ten starbucks barista is not that high either, granted, but you were not helping yourself here. If you really wanted an answer, you should’ve ordered a small black coffee (or whatever) and asked your question while she was ringing you up.
Yeah, I should have just gotten a small black coffee and asked absentmindedly. I didn't do that because I didn't want to give Starbucks money, but that's what I should've done. Thumbs up
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For asking a question that you should have known if she answered may have got her fired? Back in my customer service days I'd have just rolled my eyes and ignored you, and called for the next person, as you had already said you didn't want to buy anything. Perfect plausible deniability for me. Then bitched about you to a colleague once you left. You'd probably make the "Can you believe what this customer did?" list when winding down after work. You may not have been at the top of the list. There are a lot of customers who do unbelievable things after all, but you'd probably have been on it.
To recap you walked into a retail establishment, to ask a contentious question about a labor dispute to a basic barista out loud in the open, where anyone could hear, and apparently did not consider that the barista would have been gambling that you weren't a snitch or that anyone overheard her, and expected her to answer. That is probably not your finest hour to put it mildly.
I don't think you thought through the consequences of what might have happened from her point of view. And therefore you are entitled to her scorn. That she kept it professional is to her credit. You are entitled to be treated professionally when ordering a latte or asking where they source their soy milk from. When you ask questions, the answers to which might get someone fired, you are off that reservation, and out on your own. She is not paid to answer those questions. It was rude of you to ask. Therefore rudeness back should be your expectation.
I don't necessarily reject any of your assertions prima facie but this is an absurd way to organize society. I was happy to buy a coffee and buy one for the employee, or one of her colleagues, for their candid take on current events. I am their neighbor, at least, on paper. This entire conversation is satanic.
Note that is not what you said in your OP! You never mentioned anything about telling her you were willing to offer anything in return.
"When I told her I wasn't necessarily interested in ordering anything, but was very much interested in her thoughts on the 'strike' et al she gave me a stare that made a cow look intelligent."
But you are not their neighbor. That implies they know you already. You are a stranger. A potential customer. This is their place of work, not a place to make friends. As an ex customer service worker myself I really want to stress this. People suck to deal with. The workers generally don't want to make friends with you. They want you to engage in the transaction that they are being paid for, so they can earn their money and go home. It is not their job to give you their take on current events about their business. Especially with the possibility their job is at risk.
If you want to reorganize society such that a Starbucks employee giving their honest opinion at work to a random customer, means they do not risk being fired for it, then go ahead and work on that, but note that still does not mean they have to engage with you on anything outside the service they are being paid to deliver to you. Your relationship is transactional. Nothing more. The barista is not your friend, she is not even an acquaintance. She sees hundreds of people every day. Some of whom are nice and some of whom are unpleasant. She likely just wants to get through her mind numbing shift as easily as possible.
If you want to talk to someone who is off duty and make that same offer, then you have a bit more leeway. They aren't on the clock, they are probably a bit more relaxed, not being measured by their productivity, not having other employees over their shoulder, so many customer service employees will be much more happy to give you the truth (though they may still be suspicious if you come across as a journalist in a situation where there is a national protest or something going on).
To be fair, this is not the case at all times and in all places. It generally corresponds with scale and culture, and is much more the case in a big-chain shop than it is the case in, say, a little tea shop in a small town.
Absolutely it can I agree. But even in a small tea shop in the Cotswolds if you go in, and ask them how the labor relations are between management and staff, after saying you don't want to buy anything, I'm not sure you'll get much of an answer.
Oh, yes. I meant the propensity for idle chat / relationship-forming, and the baseline emotional response to customers.
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Oh my god dude she could have just said 'I'm not allowed to talk about it' or 'I'm really just here to do my job' but all your words words words don't erase the inhumanity of the fact that two 'normal' people can't talk anymore about current events because of...all the stuff you just said
Edit: I live down the street. I did put 'neighbor' in scare quotes because I anticipated pushback but this stung-out poor old gal works two or fewer miles away from my home. We're neighbors. Or at least we're 'supposed' to be.
Setting aside whether she might get fired, it is entirely human not to want to talk to random strangers about things at your job. Being a neighbor is just geographical proximity. Even is she lived next door she may not want to talk to you about anything and that is very human. Especially if she can detect the disdain in which you hold her.
If you want her to act as you think a neighbor should then you need to make an effort to not judge her like:
"almost comically short and fat, like a cube. Her hair was greasy, thin, obviously unwashed, and would've benefited from a cut some months ago. She was curt, bordering on rude, asking what I wanted. When I told her I wasn't necessarily interested in ordering anything, but was very much interested in her thoughts on the 'strike' et al she gave me a stare that made a cow look intelligent."
Is this how you describe the people you want to form a neighborly community with? Is this how you talk about them? Never once in your vent did you speculate that your neighbor maybe overworked and underpaid, that she might be working multiple jobs, that she might have a point in what she did, that perhaps she picked up on your immediate reaction to seeing her. You described her entirely in a negative fashion. You called her a soulless NPC.
Why should she act like a neighbor to you? Did you act like a neighbor to her? You didn't even buy a coffee at the place she works, you went out of entirely selfish reasons and on the very first time you met her, asked her a badly thought through question. You didn't start with small talk about the weather or any of the other socially acceptable ways we have of building rapport.
If you want to have a neighborly community, then you need to start treating people like your friendly neighbors. Not treating them like sources of information to satisfy your curiosity, going into their place of business with no intention of buying anything. You admitted below you should have at least bought something, so that is a start. You skipped over a whole bunch of steps in the making friendly neighbors dance, and then are confused when she doesn't treat you like one.
When a guy moves in next door, he is not automatically your friendly neighbor you can ask possibly difficult questions to, because of geography, you have to build that relationship before you ask "Hey, your employer is having a labor dispute, what is the real skinny on that real quick?" You invite him over for a bbq, you ask if you can help him move in, you lend him your lawnmower, tell him where the best bar is. We have social conventions and rules and structures for a reason. They are crucial in building relationships.
So make up your mind, was she a soulless dumb fat cow? Or was she a neighbor you want to build a real communal relationship with? If she read what you said about her, do you think it is likely to make her want to treat you more like a friendly neighbor or less likely?
Bro you are just a communist, in my humble opinion. There is nothing to do here. When you go to McDonald's in Denmark Ms Teen America takes your order with a smile and a wink. When I went to Starbucks to ask 'hey, how do you feel about this recent news' you give me interminable wordwall and the wage-slave gives me blank face
Edit: To illustrate my point there is a 'strung out old gal' working the counter at a gas station down the street from the Starbucks in question that I frequent. We're genuinely actual friends. She had my number. The other day her power went out and I went over to deliver a shitty old freezer box I had sitting around in my garage. That's neighbors.
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But it's also understandable that employers don't want to be undermined by having any one of their employees act as impromptu spokesman for any cause, anytime, anywhere. Even the striking employees as a whole don't necessarily want that - remember how antiwork was basically destroyed by one bad interview?
I think it helps to consider people as having rights and responsibilities linked to the roles they play. When you are wearing a uniform and you are dealing with a customer, you are (like it or not) visibly representing the company and you are expected to do and not-do certain things. After work, it's different.
Then just smile and ask me if I'm planning to order something or not. Like don't go full NPC drone corpo 'I have nothing to say about that' and act inhuman. What happened to being neighborly. Perhaps I am old man yelling at clouds
Edit: But no I'm not. Just give me a cup of water. That's a new one for me, to be told they're not allowed to give out water.
For sure it sounds like she could have dealt with it more gracefully. I doubt that Starbucks is getting the best and brightest.
I also think it's the case for whatever reason that Americans seem to be much accepting about paring all relationships back to pure economics. I'm not sure why. Possibly because it's worked well so far. But I'm reminded of the way that in Japan falling below a certain level of politeness is just totally unacceptable no matter what, as is stuff like raising prices beyond the socially accepted level.
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I don't know if your first question is meant to be rhetorical, but I'm going to assume it isn't.
I got to Starbucks about 2-4 times a month, depending on how much driving I'm doing on weekends. I can order from the app before I leave home, and by the time I arrive at the shop the drink will be ready for me. The only exception is their nitro cold brew, which I think the employees wait until you get there to pull to preserve drink quality. The employees pretty busy when I get there, but will respond with a "Have a nice day!" when I thank them for the drink. The seats in the café are almost always all occupied.
These are suburb Starbucks, and notably there's no other local coffee shops in the area. One of them is unionized, I have no idea about the others.
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Why is this a post in the culture war thread? You went to a store that you had a negative predisposition towards, had an encounter with an employee who you considered rude and unattractive, a fact you decided to share for some inexplicable reason. You predictably were shunned because you came with the express purpose of not purchasing anything and wasting the service workers' time.
I have no idea why your insults or opinion that 'starbucks was a shit-ass place full of soulless NPCs' are at all relevant here, nor do I agree with your hastily drawn conclusions about supposed 'curiosity' not being rewarded. If you have to question the point of your post, perhaps that is a sign it does not belong.
In the spirit of frank and open discussion, what is your political ideology?
could be wrong, but I seem to recall tagging that user as a darwin alt.
That would track with my instinct to not engage breezily. If you are Darwin buddy, hope you’re well
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In fairness, given your approach, it's possible she mistook you for a journalist.
I appreciate that I was just some pain in the ass she didn't want to deal with so she could go on with her day. We are all so used to that now that we don't even blink when someone is like 'hey, no, I'm really just curious and I'm happy to buy a coffee and buy you one too. I just have a few minutes to kill here," and the other party reacts like it's an obvious scam or (like that other intelligent fella said, @DradisPing) I was a corporate spy
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My guess is that due to whatever labour laws and corporate rules, they can do the shirt protest but can't talk about it with customers. She probably assumed you were some kind of spy from corporate trying to get her fired.
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I don't really follow what the woman you met being obtuse has to do with anything. Surely, if there's a nation-wide strike and she wasn't part of it, she's by definition not representative of the average Starbucks employee?
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I stopped going to Starbucks when they changed their concealed carry policy years ago (2013). Still get Seattle's Best occasionally at restaurants when that's all they serve. Chick fil a is the only place I go for the hope of anything resembling service.
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