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PaperclipPerfector  2mo ago (text post)   34236 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 15, 2025

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What miracles can withstand scientific scrutiny?

An incomplete list would start with the tilma of Juan Diego, thé healings associated with Lourdes, and the consistently similar Eucharistic miracles. There are lots and lots of others, these are just unusually well studied(and in some cases repeated) miracles.

The existence of the universe?

Exclusively associated with Catholicism?

Serves me right for replying from the raw comment feed.

Creation myths have a pretty terrible track record for scientific scrutiny.

If you’re suggesting that being unverifiable counts as “withstanding scrutiny,” then I have a bridge to sell you.

I'm saying the exietence of the universe will never be answerable by science. You can't get an answers for "why is there something rather than nothing" by looking at it from within the something.

It's not even a particularly controversial observation from what I understand.

Okay, sure. I still can’t see what that’s got to do with @2rafa’s request.

If I try to sell you a bridge, and I don’t allow you to see it, if I insist that it cannot be seen at all, I’m not withstanding your scrutiny. I’m avoiding it.

still can’t see what that’s got to do with @2rafa’s request.

I do have a bad habit of replying directly from the comment feed.

To my layman understanding of miracles there has to be an established understanding of a secular mechanism which is then defied by the alleged miracle. The existence of the universe does not match this because we have no established understanding of a secular mechanism according to which the universe couldn't (or could) exist.

Can that which encompasses all ever be extraordinary?

I don't think that this is the definition of "miracle" used by the Bible, or any other religious text, written before the scientific method was established.

Can that which encompasses all ever be extraordinary?

Isn't that literally what secular humanism was trying to sell as an alternative to religion?

Isn't that literally what secular humanism was trying to sell as an alternative to religion?

I do not think "you can't explain what is literally beyond known existence" is a criticism that destroys secular humanism.

I'm saying that "existence is amazingly extraordinary" (backed by hours of hypnotic monologues by Sagan, Dawkins, or Tyson) has been literally what secular humanists were saying in order to generate a sense of awe similar to that of religious epiphanies.

Your particular argument destroys any such attempt. Even if secular humanism remains ubdeboonked, it's left barren of any higher goal.

I don't know about lectures, but I've heard the vastness of the universe as a kind of awe. I don't think most secularism is sold on miracles anyway and when most people say miracles they are more talking about supernatural feats of wonder.

Regardless multiple faith traditions are filled with people having religious epiphanies indeed many religions have been started based on religious epiphanies so those don't seem very useful in discerning Truth.

I see. Personally, it's plenty good enough for me. I notice a pattern where I get into an argument with someone who is against secularism/materialism, and every time it's some variant of "those guys back then made all those promises about it". I never needed to hear those promises or believe in them to prefer secularism to religion.

Conversely, if the promises of religion about eternal life in heaven are not true, then is the preaching and the faith not completely in vain?

And God said, "Let there be a Big Bang."

"Let there be several Big Bang."

according with recent Webb observations

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