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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   25118 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 27, 2025

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Use of the federal security agencies to illegally gain partisan political advantage against the opposition seems like a fairly bright line.

Yeah, you make a strong point. I suppose ultimately the 2016 campaign with the FBI covering for Hillary, and then subsequent FBI involvement in the 2020 election and the Covid "misinformation" thing is evidence of utter corruption in our political process.

Nuts that it's all relatively out in the open, and yet half the country seems to not be aware or not care about it. Sigh.

I suppose ultimately the 2016 campaign with the FBI covering for Hillary,

Don't forget illegally spying on her opponents' campaign office. For completely unknowable reasons, including what happened to any intel thus obtained.

For completely unknowable reasons, including what happened to any intel thus obtained.

Wasn't the intelligence put into the PDB and distributed to the Clinton campaign?

I don't think there has ever been any public statement about the results or even purpose of the investigation. It's been acknowledged the FBI lied in order to obtain the warrant to surveil Page, but nothing else.

Of course, this is all going by memory. A cursory search results in lots and lots of whitewashed "fact checks" about how Trump was totally lying about the FBI spying on him; none mention Page. I found a few links purporting to lead to articles on the FISA court's condemnation of the FBI over the Page warrant, but they are all dead.

I found a few links purporting to lead to articles on the FISA court's condemnation of the FBI over the Page warrant, but they are all dead.

Speaking as someone who followed that whole episode closely enough that I once knew the details of why footnote 389 in the IG report meant that the FBI had been lying about when they opened their various investigations against their various targets, my memory of this says that the FISA court, being involved in signing on to an obviously false FISA warrant, played the IG report straight and sent it back to DoJ. The upshot of that was that Brandon Von Grack was removed as a prosecutor from the Flynn case, a new DoJ attorney was appointed, and what do you know, suddenly pretty much every single piece of evidence that Flynn's defense alleged existed and had been seeking, and that the DoJ denied existing, was produced and the DoJ was motioning to dismiss the case. The judge denied the motion, defense sought a writ of mandamus, appeals initially granted the writ but then convened a full panel, which allowed the judge to continue the trial, etc. etc.

Oh, and Kevin Clinesmith, the guy who falsified the CIA's answer that Page was an asset, was fined $100 for his crime.

If that happens, users on this board will immediately defend it as not illegal, not partisan, not an advantage, and not as bad as something that happened in the Hillary campaign.

Consider this a sad, sad prediction.

users on this board will immediately defend it as not illegal, not partisan, not an advantage, and not as bad as something that happened

You can see that right now in the thread where people dig out individual examples of "the other side" having done something as a reason why it's supposedly perfectly fine that Trump does that thing.

Moderator, mod thyself.

What for?

I mean that sincerely. I’ve got a lot of respect for you, but I don’t think I violated any rules.

I'll chime in to say that I do find statements like this

If that happens, users on this board will immediately defend it as not illegal, not partisan, not an advantage, and not as bad as something that happened in the Hillary campaign.

To at the very least be toing the consensus building(negative consensus) line but more importantly just very irritating. if you added a "most" to users then it'd go over the line and without the most it's a kind of limp claim that would be true if two users did that at which point why even make the comment. I dunno, I'm taking it out on your but people have been doing this more recently and it has been contributing to a general rise in heat on the forum.

Probably it's unfair of me to attach different expectations of posting to mods, but I do, and it's always discouraging to read mods generalizing about a Motte Ethos. You'd know the rules better than I.

Alright.

I’m sorry for painting with such a broad brush.

Because you're sniffing your own farts.

Because I have a whole library worth of janny cracks if you're going to start insulting the users. I've been holding back, because I am a well mannered boy, but if you're going to break that gentleman's agreement then I don't have a reason to hold back. I assume that because of this precedent, I can volley back and make predictions about the moderators in general?

For what it's worth, I also don't think you violated any rules.

Do you think he's wrong?

I think whether I agree or not is irrelevant. I often generalize about the ethos of Der Motte in general and suspect by and large I'm not off by far. But maybe I am. Maybe we're all capable of surprising one another. Maybe there's no Motte hivemind, and we're not so very predictable. I'd like to think so. And the best modding I've seen keeps this hope alive.

I don't appreciate you casting such an allegation to everyone here. Recently, magickittycat called me a fascist: what you're doing here is approximately N x (number of users) worse.

It is exactly what would happen on this forum, and if that prediction offends you, you should get off the internet.

If I was offended, you'd know it: I have a medly of mauve, a profusion of plum, a violence of violet for those who get my goat.

I'm tired of limp-wristed passive-aggressive talk from people that should know better. If you have an argument: present an argument. If not, fuck off.

I wouldn't call it offensive, but there's something risible about this being a property specific to this forum, or that the people making the acvusation are exempt from it.

As others pointed out this has already happened in the past, and it was defended in the exact manner it was rescribed... just not by the people some might be thinking about when they originally read the accusation.

It already happened in 2015. By the Obama administration, in conjunction with the Clinton campaign, against the Trump campaign.

It just didn't work. If Trump does something like that in the future, he'll be no worse than Obama in terms of "internal security agency coups".

It has already happened, and other than the last item, they already did.

Now it appears that what Brennan told congressional investigators was false. The current CIA director, John Ratcliffe, who used to be one of the House investigators looking into the Russia matter, has declassified documents from Brennan’s time at the agency which show that, far from keeping the dossier at arm’s reach, Brennan actually forced CIA analysts to use it and overruled the analysts who wanted to leave the dossier out of the Intelligence Community Assessment.

Ratcliffe asked the CIA’s Directorate of Analysis (DA) to review the tradecraft used in producing the assessment. First of all, the DA found what it called “multiple procedural anomalies” in the CIA’s preparation of the assessment. There was “a highly compressed production timeline,” too much “compartmentalization,” and “excessive involvement of agency heads,” which led to “departures from standard practices in the drafting, coordination, and reviewing” of the assessment. Together, all of the “anomalies” “impeded efforts to apply rigorous tradecraft,” the DA concluded.

There was no doubt the FBI wanted to include the dossier in the Intelligence Community Assessment; the CIA self-investigation found that “FBI leadership made it clear that their participation in the assessment hinged on the dossier’s inclusion.” FBI officials “repeatedly pushed” to include the dossier in the assessment.

But career CIA analysts did not want to include the dossier. The CIA’s deputy director for analysis sent Brennan an email saying that including the dossier’s information in any form would threaten “the credibility of the entire document.” That was when Brennan made the decision to overrule his experts. From the CIA’s Directorate of Analysis:

Despite these objections, Brennan showed a preference for narrative consistency over analytical soundness. When confronted with specific flaws in the dossier by the two mission center leaders — one with extensive operational experience and the other with a strong analytic background — he appeared more swayed by the dossier’s general conformity with existing theories than by legitimate tradecraft concerns. Brennan ultimately formalized his position in writing, stating that “my bottomline is that I believe that the information warrants inclusion in the report.” [Bolding mine.]

Director Ratcliffe has also declassified a 2020 House Intelligence Committee report, which the CIA had kept under wraps, that outlined Brennan’s involvement in the dossier. The report, based on the committee’s interviews with CIA staff, said that “two senior CIA officers,” both with extensive Russia experience, “argued with [Brennan] that the dossier should not be included at all in the Intelligence Community Assessment, because it failed to meet basic tradecraft standards, according to a senior officer present at the meeting. The same officer said that [Brennan] refused to remove it, and when confronted with the dossier’s many flaws responded, ‘Yes, but doesn’t it ring true?’”

...For what it's worth, I think your prediction is probably accurate in the sense that you intend it. Buy as I asked last week,

If you wish to argue by appealing to a general principle, what is the proper way to rebut such an argument if one disagrees that the principle is generally held?

Several of the effort-posts I don't have time to write any more are simple surveys of old discussions with links to the evidence answering the questions since. I have a pretty strong impression of how this has gone on balance, but it'd be better to have hard data to make the case.

Several of the effort-posts I don't have time to write any more are simple surveys of old discussions with links to the evidence answering the questions since. I have a pretty strong impression of how this has gone on balance, but it'd be better to have hard data to make the case.

A 'revisiting old questions' series would be an interesting contribution to the Motte, as long as it was done with an eye to parts of previous arguments that were wrong as well as right. It is often worthwhile to re-test old arguments, and if it can't be done without denials or dismissals that too is worth drawing attention to.

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