The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
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I (M27) have been giving one my friend from college (F27) dating advice via text for the past week. It's been frustrating on multiple levels. First, the situation. This girl is a grad student in ecology (American) at a university in Canada. She recently started hooking up with a French postdoc who is cheating on his long-term girlfriend with her. I don't see how this is going to end well. If this guy was going to leave his girlfriend (who he has been dating for a long time apparently) he would have done so already. Even if this somehow does happen, they're both academics not in their home countries, meaning a likelihood of ending up in the same place is very low. Finally, a relationship that begins with extended cheating is never going to end well because that reflects pretty badly on the impulse control of both parties. I told this girl this and that she needed to distance herself from this man, but she responded by saying that she "had to" pursue this relationship because she didn't know when she would "feel this way" again and that he was a "special guy". I'm frankly just baffled by this level of irrationality and naivety. Maybe from a 18-21 year-old women this would be understandable, but come on use your fucking brain. She is the sidehoe (at best) in this situation and the whole thing is causing such an unnecessarily large amount of stress while she's trying to finish her PhD that it doesn't take a genius to see that the juice isn't worth the squeeze in this situation. I'm continually surprised by the inability of smart people to make sensible and morally sound decisions when it comes to romance.
The second part of my frustration is more personal. I only have platonic feelings for this particular friend, but there have been many other examples with women in the past 5-10 years where my feelings have not been platonic and I have been asked to play the role of a gay best friend to give advice that will not be headed in an absolutely fucked romantic situation. This is almost entirely a me problem of setting boundaries. This most recent situation has made me realize that it's not good for me to be intimate friends with women who don't reciprocate my romantic interest, or with past girlfriends in general. The comparison game usually makes me feel really really bad about myself: why would women choose a shitty cheater over me? The solution is to not allow that comparison to be made by being more honest with those women about what my feelings are (I want a romantic partner, not another friend), and more honest with myself (it's not evil or mean to distance myself from a romantic situation that didn't work out).
The West has not fallen. The French are still the French.
I will say I've been shocked to find several relationships, adult successful ones, in my social circle who are the result of long term cheating gone legit. It's not completely unheard of. I'm oddly old fashioned on one point: marriage washes out all prior sins, once you get married whatever ethical lapses you committed in dating no longer matter.
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Others have given good advice about setting boundaries, which I agree with. Main thing I would add is that it's not only beneficial for your sanity, but it will preserve your friendship as well. Nobody wants to hear someone tell them they should break up with a significant other over and over, even if that person winds up being right. I've had friends who dated crappy girls in the past, and had to learn to let it go and let them make the mistake. I figure if you've told this woman once that this dude is bad news, you've done your duty as her friend. All you can do at that point is sit back and wait for her to come to the realization herself.
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First situation:
You can at max. (since she is platonic friend) consider one long talk about the situation with her. After that, you need to step back regarding the situation from your side and let your friend pick her choice (or pick her type of poison). Consider it as a experiment on you also. The experiment of stopping being the white knight in shining armor out there to protect the damsel in distress. In the one talk, you can explain to her few things (which partly or fully, you likely have already done):
This man who has not left his long term GF is treating her like a second priority (side-hoe). If she considers him to be someone really special, then she should be expecting the same level of feeling from his side also (which he isn't doing). Such an imbalanced relationship is bound to cause long term problems even if she is feeling great about it from an emotional point of view.
You are framing in it "smart" "sensible" analytical way, while your friend is working at a high emotional framework. You may remind her that excitement and emotional intensity alone are not the substitute for stability or genuine love over a long term. Particularly when at this juncture, she should be focusing on her career/PhD.
some sample statements which can used for her: a. You deserve someone who chooses you first. b. How people treat their current partners is how they will treat you later. So, choose wisely. c. I am here to talk about things, but I will not support decisions which hurt you or others (other GF).
Basically, you have to stop trying to control her (and she should not feel that either). Give your assessment and step back (it is your boundary-building exercise).
Second Situation:
In general, Sexual attraction is driven by emotional impulses, preselection, and status signals - not rational calculus or moral standing.
Preselection: women are attracted to men who are chosen by other women (like this friend is attracted to a person having already a GF). This is a very strange concept when you look at it from moral POV, but it is a very common situation.
Taking initiative while displaying self-confidence (going to overconfidence, social aggressiveness, risk-taking) and self-interest (lying / faking, going through extreme selfishness to cheating) is attractive trait.
Smart and moral Passive men are unattractive. They choose the destiny of always giving advice, friend-zoned, and never rewarded romantically or sexually. Or they only get rewards, when women have exhausted all other options and then they are the fail-safe (and even then these same women never forget their "special guy", as correctly mentioned somewhere in George Hale's answer).
So, be bold, show self-interest (and not other-interest at expense of self-interest), disregard your social nervousness, and get away from socially/romantically asymmetrical situations/relationships/friendships. and yes, keep your moral compass correct also (gotta sleep well at night).
Thanks for the advice. I have basically done what you suggest in the first part. We’ve had a long conversation over text, and I told her that I’ll talk to her on the phone if she wants, but she’s basically heard everything I have to say so she shouldn’t bring it up again.
Second section is also good advice. I generally need to stand up for my interests (all my interests, not just this) in life more. I can do this without violating any kind of moral code.
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F27? Hah. My wife's friend is 40 and she still managed to find a crazy guy on Tinder. Yes, he was also "special" and made her "feel this way". At least now she knows that local police cannot stay in the "stop bothering us, come back when he kills you" mode indefinitely and will do something if you harass them enough.
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The urge to suggest that this is solely a female type behavior is strong, but misguided. Probably this kind of swooning (over a caddish rake in this case) is more common in females but again I'm not even sure of that. Plenty of dudes leave committed wives after years because they met a hottie who pushes the right buttons. Trade the wife in for a younger model, as my wise aunt used to say. Women are perhaps pulled in the same foolish direction for different reasons--i.e. not mostly sexual. Women often have more lovey emotional reasons. This doesn't make it stupid. True, it's wrong and probably to some degree self-destructive. But I've seen a woman in a terrible bizarre relationship that at the time seemed so volatile that her life was arguably on the edge of ruin--only to, years later, now married to a different (stable) guy, state without irony that the bizarre relationship in question (now long over) was one of her fondest, most cherished memories of that particular time period. And yes this is a strikingly beautiful woman.
I personally think that the "gay best friend" role (as you put it) is an important role for every man to experience at least once, and it speaks well of you that any woman is willing to trust you with her inner emotional life. Although if you have designs on her yes, it will be a singularly awful experience for you. Once is probably quite enough though.
My view is that you should keep your eyes open, learn as much as possible about yourself and her during this period, and file the information away as one of life's oddities. Women and men can both turn emotionally on a dime, especially (though not only) when young. Not everyone, of course. Some of us are made of more solid stuff.
Luckily do not have designs on this particular woman, so in this case it is merely frustration that my friend is causing herself so much inner turmoil. Yet, as you state, she may not see it that way in a few years.
It has been an epiphany that I’ve played this role far too often in other relationships and in other contexts (not romantic).
Well that just makes you a friend. Possibly from your perspective you're more of a sounding board, but I've learned that's how many women communicate. Wait till you've been married 20 years.
Seriously though, a good listener is gold, worth many treasure troves. So good for you, though it must seem tedious.
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A shitty cheater is by definition a man that women (plural) choose. The choosing comes first, then he gets to enjoy the cheating. Consider lowering your inhibitions, finding a way to be more shameless, and lift more. Then, still, don't cheat.
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Ok, never ever be the male best friend for a woman you have a romantic interest in. Yes, you'd be happier if she broke up with the cheating grad student to go out with you. That's unlikely to happen, you need to cut off the friendship.
I'll suggest that the best way to do that is to offer her this. If she says no, you have the problem of how to cut off the friendship pretty much solved. If she says yes, you have a girlfriend. You can just do things, that's the secret behind 'nice guys finish last'.
I’m not interested in this particular women. She is a long term friend from undergrad.
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Upon reading the first paragraph, I was basically going to write what you put in the second paragraph, so I'm glad that you've already reached those conclusions.
You can also set boundaries in platonic relationships. I cannot see much value in playing the gay best friend for a platonic female friend, either.
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