This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Here are some thought on the current relationship recession going on.
I've always felt like our society has had a hard time talking to young men about dating, sex, and what it means to be a man. We are basically just throwing them them to the wolves and and having them figure it out for themselves. This results in bad outcomes for both parties: Men being seen as "creepy" for not being able woo a woman smoothly. & women being disappointed in the interactions and not being able to find a prince charming.
On top of culture being abysmal at talking about the problem productively, we now live in a service economy that requires social skills and knowledge to move up the ladder. Gone are the days where one could get a factory job for 40 years and call it a day; those jobs have been automated or offshored to china. But increasingly, young men have fallen behind young women in education: creating a situation where they essentially are locked out of this service economy due to the credential requirements.
Now, being in this young male category myself, ive been pondering solutions for a while now, and i've also notice that this forum doesnt really talk about solutions to the many cultural issues, so im throwing my hat into the ring on what i believe willl be effective, based on the research and data ive collected.
"New Masculinity"
So its apparent in the majority of cases, that societies judge men (primarily) by one large metrics:
The ability to climb up social hierarchy to obtain status.
Most of the other judgements that we place upon men are downstream of this one thing (virgin men being losers/incels, calling men broke, being called a pussy or a weakling ect) Being weak, lacking confidence, hinders once ability to obtain status. Being a incel/virgin indicates that you have skill issues with women. Homeless men are often looked at as "lazy" or "bums". Im not saying i agree with these - but thats how its perceived.
Old Masculinity: being overly independent, not wanting help, being a misogynistic tough guy, or shunning emotion ("boys dont cry") are things that arguably need to be left behind, and didnt serve us in the past and they dont serve us now. But there are obviously elements worth preserving: Being strong, tough, courageous, protective, ect.
If you can make things happen, be socially savvy, be dominant & soft, you will find success. Some of these are within our control, some arent. But i think individuals might be able to tilt the needle enough to find some success individually, minus the obvious changes to society.
1.) Obtaining "Status"
Women desire men with high status. The easiest way to obtain status in society is to get a higher education or to obtain high income (these often correlate). If you can get into Harvard, go for it, but for most cases, a local community college or state university is sufficient. People often meet their spouses there as a matter of fact. Now, if for whatever reason, you find that you can't obtain a degree, there are other options, my father did real-estate (this job can earn a decent living and has the plus of sharpening your social skills!), my uncle had a mechanic shop (Its worth noting here, however that most evidence still points to the degree being the best shot you have). Raising mens income has a positive effect on birth rates - so whatever you job you get, make sure it pays somewhat decent. On top of this, build other skills: learn how to dance (my personal recommendation, ive done this myself and ive gotten some positive attention and even some dates!). This will increase confidence and get you socializing, and if your good, you'll be the coolest guy in the room. Which leads to my next point:
2.) Social Skills.
This new variation of Masculinity needs to focus heavily on social skills. Men as a group are more likely to be poor in this area (higher autism diagonsis, ect). Believe it or not, many men who are single or are having trouble havent even attempted asking out the girl. I know, I know - #MeToo and all, but in my experience if one approaches with kindness (and humors!) it will be received positively. One easy way that worked for me is ride-share driving. Take little step, ask someone about their day, how they feel about certain things, ect. Join a comedy club and try to sharpen your humor! (Incredibly attractive to women in my experience). Charisma and Social skills will positively affect both your dating life, and your career success. Much of the drop in relationships and birth rate are amongst the poor and less educated, partially because of the shifts in the economy towards the service sector jobs that require the ability to talk to others. So sharpening this skill is of utmost importance. You'll probably get the hang of flirting and the like once you conjure up these social skills.
3.) GYM. GYM. GYM. GYM. GYM. GYM. GYM. GYM.
This is so insanely understated by many of people, but as someone who was 240lbs and is now 155 (im 5"6 for reference). Pretty privilege is a real thing. People respect and admire you more when you look good, for men this means wider shoulder relative to hips, and being fairly lean, you dont need to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. But if you look like this dude in the thumbnail, your pretty golden. Being tall helps too, but thats not something within your control. Easy way to get thinner: Eat less calories than maintaince (around 2000) and burn said calories via exercise (running on a treadmill, ride a bicycle, lift weights, jump rope). For building muscle, you'll need to eat around ~1lb of protein per body weight, in a slight caloric excess. You''ll have to go through cut and bulk phases where you are basically eating less to burn off fat, and then eating around or in slight excess to build muscle. Get 8 hours of sleep for recovery, drink water, remove suger from your diet if possible. You'll need to be patient as the process is slow, but once completed: your options for mates increases, your status increases, and people will treat you with more dignity and respect. Looks matter.
4.) If you are overly "nice" or sweet, masculinize yourself a bit
This will probably be more controversial, but this needs to be said. Society does have a bias towards men who are more conventionally masculine, shorter men have higher suicide rates, gay men are hated more then lesbians. I've also seen this several times anecdotally and learned this from personal experience: My own mother told me not to cry in front of women, because you'll be seen as weak. My ex told me that being more manly would probably get me further with women. I think a better middle ground here, especially if your a man who is on the less manly side of things, is to masculinize yourself a bit. Best way to do this? Learn martial arts (or do some tough sport - rugby or football) - the mindset thats built from martial arts will help masculinize you to some degree, as well as proving to women that your capable of protecting them (Trust me - they care about this). This part might sound like im trying to change you, perhaps to some extent, i am. But this is in most mens best interest, in my experience - not having some manly-ness to you will hurt your perception, at least a little bit. You can still be soft and sensitive, as a matter of fact, it works in your interests much of the time, just have some "umph" and know when to pull out the sensitive, and tough sides.
One of the main reasons that bad faith actors like Andrew Tait are so popular is because many people in our society dont want to confront various hard truths, that many in red-pill spaces actively expose: Looks, Money, & Masculinity matter. The more we lie and refuse to ack-knowledge this the worse the current social ills become. Its also important that a sort of guide map of masculinity be given (the one ive layed probably would produce positive results individually) so that young boys dont go searching for a road map else-where. Telling people to "be themselves" isnt gonna be sufficient advice in the majority of cases.
Finally, there are societal trends that make some of these harder to achieve today. People do not socialize and gather as they did in the past, meaning many women (though not as much as men) likely are going to have not so good social skills themselves or be more difficult to meet. And as stated before, our economy favors those with educated service sectors skills over those who dont. Sadly, i haven't thought of a good way around these barriers.
Take note that this is something ive written up after thinking about this for a bit, so im open to critiques or flaws in my proposals or reasoning. (As a matter of fact, Its welcome!)
It seems like you are approaching the situation from the perspective of an individual man who wants to improve his love life. Which is fine, but I'm more interested in solutions for society as a whole. There are a lot of issues involved, but I think that ultimately man is a tournament species. So in the absence of laws, traditions, social norms, and so on, there are inevitably large numbers of males of the species who do not get the opportunity to have a female mate.
I think, as far as society goes. Raising young boys, especially those coming from bad family backgrounds with these points in mind + some sort of government intervention policy would help shift the needle.
We'd also need to raise wages for men who can not attend higher education, whatever the reason.
We'd also need to crack down on the american food industry so that people can be skinnier, much of the increase in obesity is basically both the quality of and the amount of food we consume. Becoming attractive physically will help a lot. Thats 3 i can think off of the top of my head.
What's your reason for assuming the interventions needed should target men and male behavior.
Is there something that men have started doing differently that we need to correct?
The other possible solutions are probably a no go.
Targeting womens sexuality would probably be a dead end with little return. We as humans dont choose what we are attracted to. Women as a group cant undo their desire for men with money and status any more than i as a man can undo my desire for hourglass figure, youthful girls. The best we could try is having them tought to look for more personality traits outside of attraction, but that wont do as much as good as simply making said person attractive to start with. You cant negotiate it.
We also cant reverse the reality of our economic system: the service economy is here to stay. Social and Mentally intensive skills pay, and i dont see a way around this, itll probably continue as AI make progress.
I touched on some of this in the general post: Not graduating college at the same rate, more likely to have little to no friends (lack of socialization), many are even out off the workforce all together.
I know it seems that im kind of unfairly targeting men here, but i see little alternative.
We don't choose who we're attracted to, but we do choose how to act on it. Being a floozy should be just as shameful as being a cad.
One really big problem is that it's hard to offer men a compelling alternative to grifters like Tate, who promise a buffet of pussy, fast cars, and shiny toys. The role of "respected family patriarch" is off the table for obvious reasons, but we could at the very least stop lying to young men and maybe it'd stop them from turning to the grifters. Yes, being strong and competent will help. Almost no women will give you a direct signal of interest unless you're extremely attractive or she's extremely keen on you, so learn the subtle ones. Hit the gym. Learn to dance. Broaden your interests. Do interesting things. Be interesting. Learn to talk about it. Despite all the culture warring, men are still generally expected to be extremely agentic, so teaching them how to be more attractive should pay dividends.
Actually, we should teach both boys and girls how to partner dance so they can spend more time in each other's personal space without freaking out. Hell, they might even like it and decide they like each other.
I know it's not practical to implement, but we do need to teach the girls too. Men need to initiate, that's just the way it is, but then women then have the responsibility of turning men down graciously if they're being courted in good faith. I remember being an awkward teenager and once asking a stunningly beautiful waitress for her number. She turned me down, saying something like "I have a boyfriend, but that took balls. Girls like that." It was an unambiguous but positive rejection, and didn't cost her anything.
Yeah. Tons of younger women seem to be unable to effectively flirt OR to effectively and gracefully reject an otherwise polite advance.
You can give men all the coaching you like, but if the women they're targeting either completely shut down/retreat... or get nasty in response, then they will RAPIDLY decide there's no point to it.
Doubly so if the reward for a 'successful' approach is just further humiliation on the actual date. And they know marriage and kids are probably not in the cards.
I briefly touched on this on the original post. We can add this to the "Have more socialization at a young age between the sexes" solution.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It wouldn't be difficult if anyone with the ability to do so was interested in doing so. They are not.
The punishment for type I errors -- responding to a subtle signal when there isn't one -- has become so great that there's little opportunity to learn. If the punishment for failure is at best becoming known as "that creep" and quite possibly some sort of formal punishment, it is hard to find the boundaries. (Thus the earlier suggestion that the right thing to do if this happens is to change cities!)
There's nothing in it for them to do this, and in fact it does cost them. The problem the hotties have (or perceive they have) is too many approaches from uggles. Vicious shoot-downs and the prospect of formal punishment create deterrents that winnow the field in advance.
Short term perhaps, but long term they gain healthier relationships with half the human population and the opportunity for many of them to meet guys that could be great matches for them but who have been conditioned to never approach them out of fear of the social consequences.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I've proposed literally just return to a status quo ante of circa 1993 with regard to education policy/funding.
I don't think you have to 'target' female sexuality. Literally just level the playing field and stop subsidizing degrees that don't pay well or boosting female employment in careers they aren't suited for. Let the market correct.
And you will then have, on the margins, more men with relatively high status and a bit more wealth, and more women who haven't had their standards raised arbitrarily whilst becoming less appealing as partners.
And we start to reduce the political polarization of women because it is 100% clear that the college education environment is driving the women to the left in droves. Fewer Gender Studies degrees would be an unalloyed improvement.
If nobody is willing to make a policy change that risks upsetting females, the current course will only correct when something breaks.
I bring this up mainly because The Gender Divide is extremely pronounced among younger generations. There's zero reason to think this moderates later.
As the Boomers shuffle off, there's going to be a crack in the dam that currently protects females from social restriction and cultural 'retaliation.'
What do you think happens if a generation where an actual majority of the men don't even believe in gender equality achieves political power?
Implement some solutions now to correct course, or I'm genuinely afraid for how the Zoomers will end up addressing this problem that, from their perspective, stole their future.
There is no likely future where women retain their rights and privileges. That which cannot go on forever, won't. Correcting the problem now would lead to a softer landing, but it's politically impossible, so hard landing it is. Do not mistake this prediction for a preference.
Well I think one possibility is technological changes which are so radical that these relationship issues are moot. e.g. robot waifus, artificial wombs, etc.
But I agree that absent radical changes in technology, feminism is ultimately a self-correcting problem.
More options
Context Copy link
I think this prediction is fraught with the same issues any prognostication more than a couple years out is, thanks to the rapidly changing technological landscape.
But yeah, if we see economic downturn for [reasons] this likely reasserts the gender dynamics, of necessity, because we can't afford to elevate women into critical positions, and the labor men provide will be far more valuable in those conditions.
However, I largely reject people who say anything is 'politically impossible.' Not after what I've seen Trump do. Throwing in the towel without making some calculated efforts is a self-fulfilling prophesy.
I do genuinely think that if there's a massive cultural shift and political power starts coalescing on the right, women will gravitate there naturally and discard previous beliefs pretty readily.
I offer the small, tiniest bit of evidence by pointing out two things:
The recent decline in young people identifying as LGBT. The increase in the first place was largely driven by women.
The accelerating disappearance of the body positivity movement thanks to weight loss drugs. Or at least the "healthy at any size" division. (also many of its proponents just... died).
Simply put, if it becomes 'high status' to be a married stay at home mom, expect women to fall into line rapidly. Whether it is technology or politics or something else that creates the change, that's our best chance at a 'soft' landing.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Cutting down on all the ambient "Men, Amirite?" seems achievable. Right now, only being an absolute panty-melter can get a woman to briefly forget she's supposed to hate her oppressors or whatever.
Agreed
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link