site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I donno if this is exactly culture war or not. But it involves a major culture war figure.

I finally got Starlink on my isolated rural property. I'm having a guy mount it proper this week. So for now it's just on my north facing porch, maybe 3 feet above ground level, totally blocked to the south by my house, surround by trees. It's working 10x better than a competing satellite internet company Viasat, with a proper mounted dish pointed exactly where it needs to go with zero obstructions. We had some light rain on Sunday, and Starlink powered on through it with small micro-losses of connection regularly, where as Viasat was just totally down probably 80% of the day.

It's night and day. Starlink, on their best effort plan, pulls about 80 Mbps down, 10 up, with a 50 ms ping. Viasat pulls about 110 Mpbs down, 0.40 mbps up, with an 800 ms ping. So while Viasat seems to technically have more throughput strictly down, it's upload bandwidth and ping are off the charts terrible. I can also say, experientially, that Viasat speed test number does not reflect their actual download speeds. I'm lucky for Steam to suck down games at 1 MB/s on Viasat, and it was happily peaking over 11 MB/s, but mostly in the 5-6 MB/s range on Starlink.

To say nothing of the quality of service. I'm paying about $300 a month for Viasat, with an extra $15 a month for their "easy care" which gives me a discount on service appointments. Down from $500 to $200. When I had some roofers accidentally nudge the dish a fraction of a degree, that was $200 to have fixed 3 days later. Starlink just points itself exactly where it needs to point. And it's $110 a month. There is no small difference in the data caps either. Viasat has me paying $200 a month for 100 GB of "priority data", and $40 for another 30 GB when I run out. I typically have to buy two of those a month, hence the $300 bill. Starlink has a 1 TB data cap. I don't think I've ever used that much data in a month in my life.

10 times better, 1/3rd the price, indescribably more convenient. If this were being run by a public company, or a company with different stake holders, there is no way they'd have overshot the target in such a small market by so much. It would be minimally better, minimally less expensive, and it's hard to say how much they'd care about convenience. If it made them more money, they'd gladly make that worse to charge you for service appointments. I can only attribute the astounding quality of service to Musk's naive ideological commitment to the vague cause of "more internet for more people".

Which brings me to the culture war angle. It's been the subject of some number of headlines that Musk's financing of Twitter is an enormous albatross around his neck. He's forced into liquidating stock almost monthly to keep it up. I've seen a lot of talk that it might force his hand, and cause him to lose control of some or all of his companies. So I'm going to register a prediction here. Probably the first noticeable casualty of that, is that if anyone ever gets their hands on SpaceX, they are going to monetize the ever loving fuck out of Starlink. Jack the price up to $150-$300 a month, remove all the waitlist and oversell every area, throw harsher data caps on everyone, you name it. With the added culture war angle that if it ever occurs, SpaceX will almost certainly fall into the hands of Neoliberal Adherents, the Starlink mostly services rural red tribers, or grey tribers that have defected. So it'll be hard not to interpret changes in policy as being punitive towards political enemies.

Who are "Neoliberal Adherents"?

The sorts of people running companies steering hard into ESG and DEI. Making the right mouth sounds about equity, and creating special programs to advantage the usual minority client populations while generally being terrible for everyone regardless.

In my experience, "neoliberal" is basically a sneer word among woke people to characterize more moderate social/economic positions (e.g. Hillary Clinton is a neoliberal because she loves global corporations too much, etc.), so the fact that you seem to think it means the opposite basically confirms my belief that there is no consensus on who neoliberals are, other than that they are bad and control everything.

I think it means, basically, "pro-globalhomo".

It's the ideology of the world order. What you're describing is tribes of neolibs arguing about what it means to be a neolib, but they all are within it, none of them fundamentally disagree with the direction of the modern social project, they just bicker about how committed or practical methods of advancing it are.

Compare Islamists, or Dengists.

People call it that for lack of a better word to describe modernist globalism. But what ideology is the "party of Davos" if not neoliberal?

Neoliberal is definitely not woke. Neoliberal is Reagan and Thatcher and maybe Tony Blair if you're stretching it. Only in fringe online circle (like the reddit neoliberal sub) does neoliberal have anything to do with woke. When the average person uses neoliberal, usually in a pejorative sense, they mean "Those bad people who supported free market reforms at the expense of unions or the coal miners (or whatever)"

Neoliberal is definitely not woke. Neoliberal is Reagan and Thatcher and maybe Tony Blair if you're stretching it

If "neoliberal" can mean Reagan and Thatcher, then it can also mean woke. This is like a Rings of Power fan complaining about being unfaithful to the source material.

I think it's use by that subreddit has led to a lot of people on Reddit thinking that that is actually what neoliberal means.

For a big part of my life, the only person I had ever seen purposely identify as a neoliberal was Scott Sumner.

The confusion comes from the fact that the word mostly gets used by far-leftists to refer to people like Hilary Clinton, which gives everyone else the impression that the term means something like "deep Democrats who want to regulate everything to death". I basically never see it used for people like Reagan or Thatcher except in exactly this scenario of explaining what neoliberal really means.

I always got the impression that the dissident right thinks of neoliberals as "socially liberal, economically conservative". Ergo, allowing corporations more latitude to exploit workers and push for stuff like LGBT, abortion, etc. because "they want the labour force completely atomised from traditional social relations and derive all its identity from its career and place in the firm". This is a very common line among right coded tankies. I suppose there's some truth to it, but I suspect the "real reason" why wokeism is pushed so hard is no single reason at all. There is no Machiavellian scheme behind any of this, just some people (especially from the urban middle class) with whom there is legitimate purchase of wokeness because they see it as the next wave of progressivism which has already been the dominant ideology for decades, companies and public figures that parrot whatever's the most fashionable in elite consensus, activist types who will themselves to believe in this, casuals who just about believe the first thing they see in the headlines, and dissidents who are frustrated with it all.

I suppose there's some truth to it, but I suspect the "real reason" why wokeism is pushed so hard is no single reason at all. There is no Machiavellian scheme behind any of this, just some people (especially from the urban middle class) with whom there is legitimate purchase of wokeness because they see it as the next wave of progressivism which has already been the dominant ideology for decades

I suspect the exact opposite. No one was seeing wokeness as the next wave of progressivism at the beginning, even pointing at it would get you accused of weak-manning or nut-picking. Even if you were paying attention to nothing other than /r/ssc /r/themotte, you could see wokeness bubbling up towards the top, the attempts to hand-wave it away going from "it's just a couple of crazy kids on tumblr" -> "it's just a couple of crazy kids on university campuses" -> "it's just some Karens in HR (but Damore had it coming, BTW)" -> "it's just a couple of cynical CEOs insincerely mouthing woke slogans" (<-- you are now here), you could see it seizing the reins of power, and imposing itself on the masses.

I think the only reason people come up with these mundane non-Machiavellian explanations, is that it allows them to position themselves as non-supporters of wokeness, without becoming it's opponents. It's the most comfortable spot for a lot of people, as declaring yourself as a supporter requires you to commit to some amount of self-flagellation (not to mention having to answer for all the crazy stuff being pushed by governments, companies, ngo's and activists), but coming out as an opponent gets you branded as a rightoid, even if you're otherwise an outright communist, and there's nothing worse than being a rightoid.

I suppose a counterpoint to the 2nd paragraph would be that it's also comforting to blame a select few groups for the cultural crisis, but it's much more black pilling to believe that a sizable chunk of the masses isn't merely being misled, but is very much within its own agency when it demands more wokeness. And to some extent, what's most fashionable among the woke urban middle class does seem to direct the conversation. For instance, throughout the last decade, it was all feminism that was pushed so aggressively as the centrepiece of woke. Culminating into MeToo which went on until 2019. It's still being pushed of course, but the spotlight is on BLM since the George Floyd protests and the whole "Defund the police" campaign. I just cannot rationalise such a scheme without making it seem even sillier. There does seem to be some pressure from below.

Well, you're a bit behind the times, because even BLM fell out of fashion post-Rittenhouse, it's all about trans issues now, which will also fall out of fashion because of the medical scandal around transgender care for minors.

I sympathize with the pushback against being psychologized, since as you rightly point out this is something anyone can do to anyone, but in my opinion the mundane theory just doesn't hold water. If there was pressure from below, you shouldn't have seen accusations of of nut-picking in the past. If there was pressure from below you shouldn't see wokeness having to rely on censorship, shadow-banning, and algorithmic supression. If there was pressure from below, you should see that Harry Potter game bomb in terms of sales, and fuddy-daddy game journos struggling to explain it. Everything about these mundane explanations flies in the face of observable reality.

I just cannot rationalise such a scheme without making it seem even sillier.

It seems pretty brilliant from where I sit. It's like fighting a hydra, for every head you chop off, two new ones take it's place.

More comments

Lol another word butchered by the left. Milton Friedman basically the reviver of neoliberalism ain’t woke.

This is objectionably low-effort. Don't post like this please.

Milton Friedman

Yeah, he died in 2006 at the age of 96.