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I was hoping someone had already posted about this so I can ride on it. Let's say they did have the downer, what would happen?
Let's now talk for a second about suicidal empathy. I think suicidal empathy is just christianity + technology. For example, Jesus says "love your neighbor", this works fine in his time because "your neighbor" is literally your neighbor and it's probably societally adaptive. Better to help someone when they are down on their luck, it's probably temporary, it probably helps the whole village not to let them die for a temporary thing. The upside is probably worth the downside of helping irredemable people some of the time.
Your neighbor now is everyone who lives in a 10000ft radius of the earth surface. You can easily know how they are doing no matter where they are, you can go there within a day or two at a (relatively) irrisory price and you can also make them come to you at the same low price. The somalian sitting of the coast of lybia in a repurposed fishing boat? Your neighbor. The same somalian living in your country definitely your neighbor. His family? Your family's neighbor. Kicking them out as illegals? Definitely not helping them.
And that's how the Catholic Church pushed for regularizing half a million immigrants to spain this year.
This and the downer's story are actually the same category of error. Had the downer been born in the Christian Dark Ages the downer would have died of some retarded accident within 10 years and if not he would have been given the, relatively cheap, life of the beast of burden, not the simulacron of life of an intellectual that we try to give them now.
Euthanasia is also in the same category. Not killing the sick is a good idea because sometimes they get better and otherwise it's like, an extra two weeks. Not so much when we can keep them alive for 60 more years without much effort. Christianity + technology = suicidal empathy.
What's the solution to suicidal empathy? More cruelty, we need to start liking cruelty. The problem is that nobody is willing to do it, you have to trick people by saying "you're not helping them IT'S AN INVASION!!!!1!!!!!!1!!!11!!11!!!!". But it only goes so far. The downer would basically be happy we have to give as much as we can to the downer.
I would argue the opposite. Samaritans were reviled by ancient Jews. The Parable of the Good Samaritan was a subversive understanding of who is good and who is bad. A Jewish priest and a Levite are upstanding respected members of their community. Then in the parable a hated Samaritan is named as the neighbor. The guy talking to Jesus won't even say the term 'Samaritan'; he instead in a roundabout way admits Jesus's point by saying he who showed mercy.
I am very much not ideologically aligned with the Catholic Church, but they may well be following a common understanding of Jesus's message. Consequences be damned as you correctly point out.
It's not just a common understanding if Jesus' message, it's an obviously correct one.
The historical Jesus was, whether he was God the Son or not, an apocalyptic preacher who at the least didn't correct his followers' belief that the Second Coming and Last Judgement would happen during their lifetimes. Jesus' teaching on politically-sensitive topics is a combination of heroic personal virtue on one hand and political quietism/obedience to secular authority on the other - he is teaching in a context where the Roman Empire is what it is and rebelling against it is obviously stupid (which did not prevent the Jews rebelling, or suffering the consequences). And with that background, "regardless of what ICE is or is not doing, you, personally, should show love for the illegal immigrants as a display of self-sacrificing personal piety" makes perfect sense.
The Gospel simply isn't trying to be a source of secular wisdom for princes (or democratic citizens) - hence the consistent attempts by Christian political theorists to find Christian political wisdom in the Old Testament and needing a way round the fact that Solomon definitely was not Christian and was subject to ritual laws that we are not because they have been fulfilled in Christ. But most Christian political movements get their secular politics from secular sources.
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In the time of Christ and the early Church, the key neighbors in question were the Romans who tried and failed across the next >350 years to torture, rape and murder Christianity out of existence. It wasn't be nice to your immediate neighbors, everybody does that, it was show love to the men leading you to the pyre. If purely for reasons of history and epistemic hygiene, should your primary understanding of Christianity have come from American Scripturalists and the modern atheism they spawned, you are lacking 1800 years of empirical record.
In the US, which means far more in Europe, 83% of employees of such charities are either atheists, members other religions, or cultural Catholics excommunicated latae sententiae. This is irrelevant, though, because none of these charities could operate without the prevailing interest of their governments in overseeing demographic replacement. There is the point that the government gives charities large amounts of money and the charities give it back to favored politicians, but the charity industry is the domain of leftists and there are expressly nonreligious charities doing the same work. Regardless of that, it is, also, not as though charities are the bottleneck. Demographic replacement is top-down, charities, any charity, may influence where foreigners are finally placed once in a country and the privileges they enjoy, but those foreigners would be in the country regardless, because that's what power wants. Everything else is set dressing.
"We need more cruelty." How do you think we got here? It wasn't a superabundance of love. In cruelty we destroyed the structures that could support such people and standing in the wreckage we say now tear them apart in the womb.
There are verses that call for cooperation with and forgiveness of state authorities, though they may be oppressive.
But, in the time of Jesus or at least the writing of the Gospels, it's just as if not more likely that it meant Jews, actual neighbors who persecuted Christians who tried to stay in the same communities. Paul admits he tried to destroy the Church and he likely wasn't the only one. It's dubious if the Romans recognized it as anything other than a cult led by a rabble rouser.
I don't think you're wrong about the Jews as primary antagonists, at least up to the destruction of the Second Temple. Still, by 70 AD, Peter and Paul had been martyred by Rome. We also see a certain prototype in the Passion account. Jesus asks forgiveness for the Roman soldiers, and now in the nearly 2000 years of martyrs since, where we have their last words, we at least very often read of them forgiving and asking forgiveness for their murderers.
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The first historical pagan reference to Christianity is from ~112 CE by Pliny the Younger, governor of northern Turkey, asking the Emperor his advice on dealing with recalcitrant Christians. Suetonius also mentions Jewish riots in Rome during the reign of Claudius instigated by a man named "Chrestus" (possibly Christ), which resulted in their expulsion. Tacitus famously describes how Nero fed Christians to the lions after burning Rome.
The Roman problem with Christians was that they refused to participate in local and state cultic sacrifices, which was the kind of thing that brought disasters and plagues and general suffering from the gods. Unlike Judaism, Christianity was also obviously a new religion, so it didn't get any respect for being ancient. Also, the Romans thought they were getting up to weird stuff in their private sessions, like having giant orgies and eating babies.
Rome didn't really have a formal criminal system. The governor was basically allowed to do whatever he wanted in the name of keeping the peace. So Christianity was rarely "illegal", but they caused general disturbances and that led to persecution.
Technically true because Josephus doesn't call it Christianity, but Josephus writes about Jesus in around 93AD, saying that he was hailed as the Messiah and that he was executed by Pilate. This implies the existence of a group of people doing the hailing - i.e. Christians.
Josephus wasn't a pagan. The flavian testimony is useful for confirming that Jesus was a real person and Pilate killed him. It doesn't tell us much about how Roman authorities viewed Christians though, which mostly appears to be as a minor annoyance.
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The testimonium flavianum is a forgery: because a jew wouldn't have written that, because the paragraphs before and after flow better together without it in the middle, because Origen didn't know about it when, if it did exist at the time, he would have and because all surviving copies of the antiquities with it go through Eusebius who is coincidentally also the first one to use it.
I know there are recent attempts to rescue it but they are bullshit.
It's generally considered to be partially accurate with Christian interpolations ("He was the Christ", etc). Origen mentions, at least, the passage about James the brother of Jesus. Josephus's original passage on Jesus, with the theology stripped out, would not have been useful for apologetics, so it's unsurprising that no one mentioned it for a while.
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Notice in this story that he didn't already know what to do and, iirc, was basically told by Trajan to not go looking for problems just handle them when they came up.
But you're right. I was thinking that the systematic persecutions came much later under Diocletian which long postdates the Gospel's likely dates (and that at the time of their writing the Romans were just hostile towards Jews in general and had no reason to pick apart their endless ideological debates*), which is true. But forgot about Nero's opportunistic behavior. That shows they were at least known and/or distrusted by pagans as well.
* Which explains some of their conciliatory gestures.
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Jews in the Bar Kochba Rebellion killed many Christians that refused to join them in the revolt against the Romans.
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The most famous example Jesus used was a Samaritan, who were the Jews' outgroup.
Yeah some people here have a deranged understanding of the Parable of the Good Samaritan. The 'neighbor' is a member of the hated outgroup, and not respected members of the ingroup.
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"far more in Europe"? Is there a missing word there? I don't understand. Also your link doesn't look to me like it's supporting your assertion. It says "The study of campaign contributions from 2018 through February of this year showed that 83% went to Democratic candidates or political-action committees" the 83% is donating to a party, it doesn't say anything about their religious affiliation. I also followed the link at the top and searched for "atheist" and found no hits.
I could have clearly worded that better. Europe is more progressive than the US, so if we look at a field, such as NGOs in the US, and we find it dominated by progressives, then we should expect an even greater degree of progressive control of charities in Europe. But that's an issue, one of two here I've produced. The first is I am just assuming the European NGO employees are more progressive, and the second is the data references a study of American Catholic charity employees who donated to political causes. I didn't look further to check what percentage of employees donate, so 83% must be wrong, and really it's that 83% of those politically-active donate to leftist causes in the US. Helping women get abortions, which includes donating to and voting for pro-abortion politicians, also incurs automatic excommunication.
So in the studied Catholic NGOs, 83% of their politically active employees are either:
Atheists / Non-religious
Members of other faiths
Catholics who have excommunicated themselves
This isn't an argument about those non-practicing Catholics not being Catholic. They are still Catholic, and they are taught they will be judged more harshly for what they know. This is an argument against aspersing teachings because of the behaviors of people who do not follow those teachings. Is this a useful distinction? POSIWID and all? I think in some things it might not be useful, but here it is useful because it's the governments that are doing this, and they don't need charities to help.
This is a very fantastic interpretation of both canon law and of that statistic. Just to be clear, not even pro-abortion politicians are excommunicated.
I also looked more to that article, and it's sources and I'm starting to have doubts.
Almost a full third of all donations come from a single person, Wayne Paglieri, about whom they have this to say:
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Religiosity is higher in US than Europe, so absent other considerations, if most US employees are essentially atheist or Non-Judgemental Therapeutic Deity then in Europe it will be more so.
Not quite sure that checks out - religion is more controversial in US than in Europe precisely because religiosity is higher, and South Europe is more Catholic.
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I note that as much as this interpretation might have been the result (unclear), this is pretty verifiably not the intention on display in the New Testament, much to the embarrassment of many a heatmap-pushing X user treating it as at least an open question.
I'm not talking about intent I'm talking about what was practically possible. The intent, who knows for sure, but probably you are right.
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Bloody hell. I work in a service that deals with children with additional needs, and I can tell you about at least one family that had a Down's Syndrome child, then the second pregnancy was normal. Today I read the obituary of a woman in my county who had fourteen children and a normal life (not on welfare, not lower class, lower middle to middle class lifestyle).
So people, unless they're your special bubble of "oh no, unless we can afford at least 200k per year to raise little Timkins until he hits the age of ten and then we need even more money, we cannot possibly have a child" can and do manage to have children. "My child is disabled" is not a reason for not having kids.
Stop trying to justify "I think these pregnancies should be aborted for eugenic reasons" with "having these kids stops people having normal babies", because it doesn't.
I am reminded of this man born to a family with dwarfism. Both his biological parents and siblings have it, but he was a normal, healthy child and grew to be 6ft tall, and according to a DNA test he took, his future kids will probably be normal as well. But growing up as the youngest child in a family environment like that wouldn't have been easy. You'll have to accept early on you'll have a shorter childhood and grow up quickly, because parenting a child with special care needs is extremely stressful, requires heaps of attention, and more often than not results in the breakdown of relationships.
Bro is living out Tiptoes IRL.
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Yeah but on the other hand having a young child is already super stressful and resource-intensive, much less having a developmentally-disabled one who requires far greater investment of resources and effort. You'd have to be crazy to expect that there isn't atleast one couple that's being nudged from Yes to No on having a second child if they've gotta deal with a first disabled child. You're also more likely to have to opt into a cesarean or early birth with some conditions for the child and that increases the trauma of delivery/chances of complications that render carrying further children unsafe.
I do agree with one level (especially with larger families frequently hitting a point of economies of scale as sheer numbers means the labor associated actually diffuses especially with siblings reaching sufficient age to help out) that people are capable of having large families
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Very nice set of anecdotes.
The eugenic solution would be to not have any other child after the first downer. Downers rarely reproduce so there is little risk there but there could be a genetic component (although it seems that it is rare) and that would be a reason to avoid healthy carriers.
Downs is a trisomy, not a mutation, so there are no healthy carriers in the sense that there are for e.g. haemophilia or cystic fibrosis.
(There are genes which somewhat increase the odds of a Downs baby, but the effect is small compared to maternal age).
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Gosh, "downer", such an edgelord!
Mind you, I'm the fool for responding to the "haw haw I'm fourteen and think I'm so smart pranking the adults" bait, so congratulations you.
If we're edgelording, I prefer "Mong". It's the term that was used in British school playgrounds when I was in school, though as with all such terms more for people who acted like they had Downs than for people who actually did.
Yes, if we must descend to name-calling, let us at least use the time-honoured insults! No need to reinvent the wheel with "downer" (can't you just hear the chortling about the ever-so-witty pun involved, because they're a downer in the slang sense too, don't you get it?)
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Down's syndrome is a chromosomal abnormality that is nearly always [i]de novo[/i]. Male Down's syndrome sufferers are nearly always sterile; females are not always sterile and if they have a child they are very likely to have a Downs child. So strictly genetically, having a Down's syndrome boy is isogenic, having a Down's syndrome girl is dysgenic, and having another non-Downs child is no different than if the first Downs syndrome child didn't happen. But going a little wider, you're likely to have fewer children after a Down's child because of the massive amount of resources the Down's child takes up, so if you've got good genes, having the Down's child is dysgenic for that reason.
FYI you put text in italics by putting an * on
eithereach side.each
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There's the wrinkle that choosing to have a severely disabled child also imposes a burden on their siblings, particularly after you're dead. Some parents explicitly think of this as their lifelong care plan; others just implicitly let this happen. Impressively, somehow making "I'll let society deal with it" seem relatively responsible.
We're all getting better and better every day, society is more humane, AI will make us all rich post-scarcity, we can colonise the galaxy and be little gods of our own worlds - and yet somehow putting any of that wealth into services for more humane living for all people is impossible.
You see why I'm so sceptical of all the dreams and wishes around transhumanism and the rest of it? We're gonna live forever - but we can't manage to cobble together some system of support for the most vulnerable among us, no that would be too much of an imposition on society.
There are enormous systems of support that are essentially unprecedented in human history. Spazzing wildly any time someone is somewhat skeptical of a particular system providing utility commensurate with it's costs is why a lot of countries are in a fiscal mess on health and disability spending.
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It’s not eugenic reasons. If a woman aborts a fetus with down syndrome because she calculates that it will ruin her life, this may be a eugenic act but it certainly isn’t done for “eugenic reasons”, any more so than a violent thug killing someone with some condition is doing it for “eugenic reasons” instead of unrelated ones.
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In addition the state funding starts instantaneously. There's huge subsidies for disabled children and their medical even though they also financially wreck the parents.
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