This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm a few weeks late to this, ShiftUp dropped the reveal trailer to the Stellar Blade sequel.
For the non-gamers, Stellar Blade is a South Korean action adventure game released in 2024 on the PS5, and on PC a year later. It caught a ton of media attention for its "goonbait" protagonist EVE, her sex appeal was central to the game's marketing. EVE is based on a body-scan of South Korean model Shin Jae-eun, but it's obvious that her body proportions were deliberately exaggerated in the game. IGN France ran a preview piece calling EVE "a doll sexualized by someone you would think has never seen a woman", and issued an apology for that comment after getting called out. The game was a smashing success, sold millions of copies and became the champion game for the anti-woke.
Now the Stellar Blade sequel is self published, and will feature a new protagonist, Evie. The gameplay has also seemingly taken a different style, now set in a populated, linear city area as opposed to the post-apocalyptic world of the original. Now as per tradition, the studio is caught up in a controversy again, but from both sides. The wokes are saying Evie looks like a minor but is still sexualised, now which normal adult would jerk off to that...
Edit: forgot to put it here, some users on resetera also threatened to report the game to payment processors, who were delisting certain games from Steam and other platforms last year.
But the ShiftUp CEO dismissed those criticisms, and recently reposted a comic making fun of those complaints.
The non-wokes are upset because they wanted EVE, and Evie's assets are comparatively tame. And at least some of them (including Asmongold) agree she looks too young as well.
The biggest highlight for me is how "pedophile" has become the last truly potent scare word left in the discourse. But just like "sexist," "racist," and "homophobic" during the Gamergate era (which once forced constant defensive crouching and ritual apologies from those at the receiving end), the term is now being inflated and abused by both sides. Age-gap relationships between consenting adults, anime-style character design, and anything that triggers either tribe's sensitivities gets shoved under the label. Both sides are eager to fire this particular silver bullet at each other because it's the last remaining moral failing both can still agree is beyond the pale. Eventually, we're gonna roll our eyes at this too.
There is no "steelman" for pedophilia, unlike for racism (freedom of association), sexism (traditional gender roles), and homophobia (traditional sexual morality). There's no virtuous principle or sympathetic situation that causes people to think "hmm, maybe sex with kids isn't so black and white." So I expect the taboo to hold indefinitely barring a radical shift in the legal and social understanding of what childhood is and what children are.
As for the sequel's main character -- look, I grew up on early chan imageboards and the unfiltered early 2000s internet so I have a pretty high tolerance and probably a quite warped sense of what's within the bounds of good taste -- but even in my opinion, that's a 7 year old's face on a young woman's body. That's bad enough, but all the exploitative and opportunistic camera angels make it uncanny and perverse. I probably wouldn't play it unless they aged her up at least to adolescence.
EDIT: I'm not talking about the SJW version of "pedophilia" meaning attraction to women under 30. And yes I'm aware that people online like to motte and bailey the term in bad faith. I don't have any problem with people playing this or making this game, just saying it's not for me.
The steelman is that a 30-yo man having a normal, consensual relationship with a legal adult female age 24 is something that currently can fall under "pedophilia" in the national discourse. The issue isn't that "real" pedophilia has some redeeming quality (it doesn't), it's that because of that very evil, we will never be able to define it narrowly enough to stay pure evil. People will always be looking to smear that taint onto stuff that isn't quite, or even close to pedophilia.
And anyone who argues the minutia (e.g. "ephebophilia") just gets bulldozed as "pro-pedo".
I'm getting a lot of replies in this vein, but AFAIK the "she was 29 you sick fuck!" crowd is mostly deranged internet leftists? Is anyone getting cancelled for "pedophilia" for dating a woman over 18? There's a lot of screeching online about it, but it reminds me of "patriarchy" or "shitlords" or whatever. I agree that some people try to make pedophilia mean "age gap," but I don't think the vast majority of people buy it at all.
Deranged internet leftists have never been able to stampede major institutions into implementing their demands? It's all online screeching until the DOJ mandates the screeching.
So yeah, I'm gonna stay in the pocket on this one too.
That's not what I said. If we see Woke 2.0 then sure, I wouldn't be surprised if wokescolds managed to force some institution to pass "anti-pedophilia" codes of conduct or whatever that protect 29 year old women from "predatory" 35 year old me. But I don't think the vast majority of normal people bought into "system racism" when Woke 1.0 was at its peak, and the opinions of normal people are what the original comment was about.
Yes, they did. The opinions of normal people are the opinions the vanguard tells them to have, and they hold them quite sincerely.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I mean several things get wrapped into pedophilia:
-Age gap relationships.
-Socially approved Ephebophilia (such and such sexualized pop starlet is 18, now we can stare at her).
-Socially not approved Ephebphilia (such and such sexualized pop starlet is 17 and 360 days old).
-Clearly not okay relationships that fall afoul of age of consent laws.
-Clearly okay relationships that fall afoul of age of consent laws.
-Historically accurate but icky relationships between a post-pubescent but young child and a much older person, usually a noble or equivalent figure.
-Actual relationships or physical contact between an adult and a prepubescent child (aka actual pedophilia).
Obviously I've approached this a in a loaded way, but all of these things get labeled pedophilia by some people. Your lines may not match what the woke feel is appropriate for instance, nevertheless they've had a lot of success at labeling the first item pedophilia.
Realistically we need other words for icky behavior but we don't have them, even as an anti-woke person what Leonardo DiCaprio gets up to is weird and deserves some social censure. But we have the one weird and it gets tossed everywhere.
With respect to the matter at hand - I know lots of Asians and Asian enjoyers who are like "yeah this looks normal" even if you don't feel that way, and I have seen some cosplayers already look like the character.
I'd argue that it's romantic relationships between teenagers (normally between a teenage girl and a slightly older boy) that can be categorized as 'socially approved ephebophilia', as socially generally tolerates such sexual acts within certain limits. Society is also generally OK with male college students having relationships with 17/18-yr-old girls. Relationships between older male groomers and underage teen girls, on the other hand, are cases of socially not approved ephebophilia.
While disgruntled women may not like men looking at the 19 year old cheerleader/athlete/celebrity most men are going to find that acceptable (outside of woke circles),*
I tried to capture your example in age of consent laws, which (at least when I was a teenager, I don't know if this has been patched everywhere) could get you in trouble for dating a high school student while you were in high school.
*Notably in porn, most places don't use "jailbait" or "teen" heavily anymore but stepsister porn is high popularity and while the reasons for existence have less to do with the age stuff, it's definitely by implication underage people even if the actors involved are clearly in their late 20s and make sure to loudly explicitly state "I'm over 18."
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
That's what I was asking -- have they really? Does anyone actually care what those people think?
There's really nothing I can do here but take your word for it, so okay. FWIW I don't care if other people enjoy the character, more power to them. Just looks like like my elementary school kids' classmates to me, personally.
I think the initial face reveal in the trailer looks disconcertingly young but the game play model just looks generic pretty girl but not illegally young. Mostly since the initial face reveal has chubbier cheeks
That's fair. The action scenes that were in 3rd person looked fine to me. Maybe it was just the face reveal that looked off.
Yeah it's the cheeks for me but the third person view looks pretty generic Squenix final fantasy protag to me
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
You may have a heightened degree of sensitivity for this topic (which is by no means wrong, the heat generated by it is kind of the point, see other poster's comments) or an increased ability to perform facial discrimination and be actually correct - but you have seen enough posters quickly post their anecdata, many people aren't really seeing what you are seeing (again doesn't make us more correct, just reflecting the views of others).
With respect to the woke scolds. Yes. Yes people care what those people think. Those people run the culture and decide what is allowed and permitted and what gets you fired. A small but lovely part of watching the World Cup was seeing beautiful people from around the world representing the appearance and character of those countries. That's banned now, so when the camera scans the crowd it's mostly fat old guys in costumes. The world was made dimmer by the woke scolds and they are working on age gap relationships right now.
As to the frequency of these beliefs.... I work in healthcare so I'm around tons of basic bitch women all the time, they've all obtained the download and find everything bad and to be truly "pedophilia," even the ones who fantasize about a rich age gap relationship for them. It's just how they are.
FWIW, they’ve been subtly bringing this back. I’ve watched quite a few of this year’s World Cup matches so far, and pretty much all them have included at least one obvious “check out this hot girl” crowd shot for each country, usually more. Not as blatant as the gratuitous “zoom the camera directly in on her boobs” shots you’d see in the 2000s, but they’re clearly not sticking to the ostentatiously sexless #metoo-era posture either.
Fundamentally though I agree with you. It doesn’t matter much that most people don’t really care about woke-scolds’ pet issues, because woke-scold types are vastly overrepresented in positions of power; they will enthusiastically use that power to advance their positions; and normal people do remain terrified of upsetting them, because they are disproportionately common in positions of power. This is all true.
I will say, when I interact with people younger than myself, the age gap stuff seems to have few true believers. Zoomers seem to be stuck in a collective action problem where no one wants to be the first to break from the perceived consensus, and many (especially girls) feel the need to performatively enforce the perceived consensus lest they be shunned, but the consensus doesn’t really exist.
For example, a friend of mine was working for our college’s IT department after graduation and eventually started dating a sophomore who he basically met through that job. Based on what you see online, you might expect that this was somehow fraught or they’d have to defend their gasp 3-ish year age gap or the fact she was a student and he was staff. In reality common sense prevailed, and there was no such friction. Well, we did rib him a little at first (“you can’t even take her to a bar bro lol”). In fact they’re still together several years later and I suspect they’re going to end up married.
More options
Context Copy link
I'm actually quite sympathetic to the people responding to me. I really dislike all the people who smear anything cute, sexy, or childish as "pedophilia!" and I do strongly agree that the word is intentionally and systematically abused to smear what are basically normal healthy instincts for heterosexual men, namely attraction to post-pubescent women.
I actually wouldn't have posted my opinion outside the Motte since I don't want to aid and abet that crowd. I was hoping to share my view here merely as a data point, not as an implied condemnation of the game or anyone's taste.
I actually wonder about that -- maybe so, or maybe they're trying to prevent a weakman from becoming a superweapon. If it's the latter, I understand.
I'll take your word for it since I'm not around those sorts of people much these days.
Love that!
Probably, but a lot of people here are autistic enough to be like "that 16 year old looks 23 and massive tits why is this in the same category....." (with threat of social censure making most not say that and many of those believe it). While Stellar Blade is a different situation those lessons metastasize elsewhere.
Between my social scene and work I am very fortunate to have access to pretty much the full range of people. It's really important to remember the lessons of "its just those kids on college campuses" we started hearing that in the early 2010s and now our culture is unrecognizable, if you have a lot of woke access you'll see that the stereotypes and worst ideas are all full throttle. I was talking to a former NFL player turned business exec at dinner this weekend. Guy is about the most anti-woke manly male you will ever see, but his wife and daughters are woke crazies so he uses his charisma and authority to push their agenda.
The crazies are crazy and have ways to make the rest of us suffer the crazy.*
*Because of the specific topic I will clarify I mean specifically with respect to healthy age gap relationships, I don't want anyone thinking I am a pedophile because even posting anonymously it's a scary thought that someone would incorrectly think that.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link